Tom - I know I typed a lot and it's all over the place, I just want everyone to be clear - I never said the rod which broke had the Bumper system, I said when I tested the Bumper system on a similar blank, the same thing happened.

I kept the distance 8" apart from the stripper to the 180, saw where the line touched the blank, placed a size 12 guide there - and the same thing happened when the rod was flexed - the line lifted off teh first 180, adn the line went from teh Bumper directly to teh 2nd 180. I already posted when I put a size 8 in place of the #12 bumper, it worked, but I cannot use that small of a guide to pass 60-80# knots.

I do not want people to have the misconception that a particular method or the blank company failed, I already posted obviously I screwed up on the blank that broke. I recieve a ton of grief from people taht the spiral wrap is silly, etc, etc - and I've been defending it for years on several interenet fishing sites, on on ALL teh boats I fish on. First problem I've run into with sprial wrapped rods out of 50. I should probably stop messing around setting the up differently.

No, do NOT put the bumper guide on the rod until AFTER you have done your static testing - it's not part of the regular guide spacing and will not offer any stress distribution anyway. The one mistake I see over and over when some people have tried to use this particular system is that they want to make the Bumper guide their 2nd guide and you can't do this. The first and second guides must be placed and spaced as they normally would be and then the bumper guide is put back inbetween those two (Yes, I know this then technically makes it the 2nd guide, but only after the fact). If you make the bumper guide part of the regular guide set up you'll have way, way, way too much space between your guides. This is easier shown than expained in words, although the article did a great job and had photos and illustrations to point this out.

Not to pick on Sammy Mickel, but the first Simple Spiral Bumper guide rod he brought to show me was done wrong in exactly this same fashion. His bumper guide had replaced the normal 2nd guide instead of being an addition to it. I had him spin that 90 degree transition guide that he had there, on down to 180 and then add a bumper guide between that one and the first one. At that point all was well and the rod worked great. I need to take some photos of the difference between these set ups and post them. I'll try to do it this week. It seems to be a stumbling block for many.

In Billy's case, the problem is twofold - too much space between guides and the fact that the line lifted off a guide ring when the rod was loaded. I ran into this on some early spiral wraps I did. The problem for me was after the first 180 guide the line wouldn't touch the following 180 degree guide until the rod was heavily loaded. This put a great distance between the first and second 180 guides - about 16 or 17 inches. I solved it by using a much smaller guide on the 2nd 180 guide which kept the line in contact with it even when the rod was only lightly loaded. For Billy, this is no good as the very small ring won't pass his knots. A larger ring could be employed and the frame reshaped to get up closer to the blank, but I'd have to see the thing in flex to know if even this would work on that blank. There is a way to do this, but it's just going to take some trial and error to get a good system set up on that blank.

I will toss in this one thought - we're used to seeing guides set up so that their distances apart increase proportionally as they are placed back down the rod away from the tip - but it does not have to be done this way. It could well be, that on a rod like Billy has there, the guides should be closer at the butt and farther apart near the tip. They need to go where they need to go, regardless of what we're used to seeing. Again, I'd have to see the blank flexed to really make a good recommendation though.

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Billy,

Yes I understood what you said the first time out.

In the post I just made, near the end I mentioned that maybe the guides need to be closer near the butt and farther apart near the tip. You might try this. In a rod with such a slow action, the tip will rarely be flexed much - the rod quickly shifts the load to the mid and butt area and so that's where most of the guides need to be.

I wish I had the blank here so I could fool around with it. There is a way to do it, but it's just going to take some trial and error and perhaps a very unconventional looking set up.

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Billy

Tell Tom what set up and blank you have , he probably has one and he could fool with it and give you a good set up.

Tom what you posted at the end of the prior post - was the set up which worked best:
"The only set up which kept contact was when I went from a size 20 stripper, to a size 10, to the first guide being a size 12, then back to a size 10 for the rest of the rod"

What I'm gonna do, when I get some more time is put the guides closer together near the butt as you suggest. I typically overguide my rods to prevent breakage since most of my rods are graphite & are high stuck (this rod NEVER even got wet, it broke setting the drag for the first time). I'm going to also go back and play with the size of the guides - I admit that I refused to do the size 20-10-12-10 set up because it looked wrong, & I really never tried putting the guide near the butt closer than 6-7". most guides near the tip are between 4 & 5 1/2", on almost all my rods.

The biggest problem with static deflecting these particular rods, is they actually have a fast action, until they are loaded up, then more of the blank bends, right into the stripper guide area. I definately screwed up the rod which broke, since I didn't static deflect enough, I guess.

Takes a guy with wide shoulders to admit making boo-boos in front of all of these eyes, Billy. Kudos to ya, buddy!!

Putter
Williston, ND

Randy - It really doesn't matter what people think about me or my rod building skills or lack thereof. Everyone messes up, and when I do I try to fix that mistake so I don't make it again next time. Rather than put the blame elsewhere, I know it was the man in the mirror who screwed up...admittedly I thought it was teh blank company who sold me a lemon, rather than complain I spent time trying to figure out where I could have went wrong, with a similar lighter blank. Didn't take long.

Also, in doing so, you may solve this problem for others watching--BEFORE it happens to them.

Another good thing got brought up on the Bumper here, too. Many have been using the actual Bumper guide for a normal, spaced guide and possibly this will keep others from making that mistake, too.

But it's still making me smile that you'd throw this out here in front of all of these eyes, Billy.

Putter
Williston, ND

I'm going to throw something else out, too. It may well be that a lower, small butt guide will help you. If the butt guide is too high or too large, I can see the line lifting off the first 180 guide when under load, which would put a long area from the butt guide to the first area of contact with a guide.

..........

Tom - I think the only lower guide than an HSNG20, is the USG. I never used these guides because they are way too heavy. I don't even have them to compare to though. Size 20 worked well with a Tiagara 16 & an Avet 4/0 EXW, I don't think I'd want to drop the stripper size less than that though. Don't ask me why, I do not have an answer - the "rule" for SW rods is size 20 for stripper guides, and nothing else. Same as each guide "has to" be placed further away from the previous one as you move down from the tip.

The USG are indeed very heavy and very stiff. I've never liked them although I still see some guys using them on surf rods of all things.

A good experiement would be to set up a rod just as you did before and take the butt or stripper guide off and just look at the line flow that way. See if it puts the line back on all the lower guides. You'll have to decide what to do about it, but the more I think about it, that butt guide may be the key in this situation.

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Thanks Billy V. for this very interesting thread!
For those who are interested, I have just posted a couple of photos of my first "Bumper" wrapped
jig stick. I beleive it is set up correctly and might give some insite to those who have any questions
regarding the "simple spiral". If anybody can see an error please let me know. The spacing is as\
follows from butt to tip: Butt guide 17" from center of reel seat at 0*, next guide 9" at 180* with the
bumper between them at 90*, next guides are at 4 15/16, 4 3/16, 4", 3 3/4, 3 1/2, then 3 1/4 to the tip.

Thanks again Billy Vivona BRAVO!!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Bravo Billy V - you've proven to all of us that your rods are all decoration & about as functional as a toilet plunger, lol.

I'll do my best to post some pics in the morning of the blanks in question.

That's really not fair. Toilet plungers are very functional. Maybe you should say your rods are as functional as a broken toilet plunger.

Howzit Billy! Interesting dilema! TK put it best! You know me, I am stuck on those sigle foot guides whcih(sic) are low out of the box! My only question was why you spce the guides so far apart in the first place. I have been positioning the rear guides no more than 6" apart and that is on the 40# - 60# rods that I build. I have also gone ot straight bumper guides on my rods, yo know these Left Coast guys, the clsoser to conventional the rod looks, the more they are prone to accept the Acid rod! LOL!. The only exception to both would be the 9' and 10'+ jig sticks.
Keep'em coming Billy, great threads from problem thru to solution!

Jim - the last 2 guids on teh butt were 8" apart, becasue when I static deflected them in my Lab, everythign was just fine. Most of my other rods are built in similar fashion, including the 7' Predator (the oen which broke was a Predator Lite), and havent' had an issue or problem to date. I do not measure how far guides are apart, I do my best to place them by eye where I think they should go, then move them based on static deflection. I just screwed up on this one, trying to do something a little different. When I tried with a URS70H-Plus & URS-70Mega, I ran into the same problem placing teh guides down towards the butt. I sold the other 2 P Lites I bought, so I was unable to try again on that exact blank. The other blanks are a little faster, but still bend into the top to bottom area, and I had the same problem when I loaded them up (they were easier to load than the P Lite so static deflecting was a little more realistic)

That Single Foot LDBSG might be exactly what the Dr. ordered. I may have a couple of BLBLG's laying around I can substitute. Good idea, thanks a lot!!!

Billy,

Try this simple test. Check the static deflection with and without the bumper. You may discover that the bumper guide slightly liftis the line does not allow the first 180 deg. guide to load properly. Like James' (Doc) post, I put my bumper guide near the stripper rather than in the middle in order so the line is always touching the first 180 deg guide from no load to fully defelcted.

James

As the article points out, on very moderate to slow action rods, you want to have the bumper guide at 100 degrees rather than at 90. This effectively relieves the situation you speak of and still allows you to put the bumper directly inbetween the first two guides.

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