I have a 50-80# rod break the first time I ran line through it & set the drag. The blank was just fine all teh times I pulled the tip down, almost to teh floor while it was being flexed hard. I couldnt' figure out what could have happened, so I spent a few hours in my Labratory with other similar blanks to see what could've caused the problem.

What I found, was on Parabolic blanks, which bend down to teh stripper guide, teh line tends to come off of the first guide on teh bottom of teh rod, with almost any set up I tried. I spent 3 hours trying different sizes & placement, and almost all did the same thing.

On my particular rod which broke, I had the guides spaced appx 8" from each other, so when the line came off the first 180 guide, there was 16" between guides where the line touched, causeing the rd to break, almost dead center of these 2 points (at least that is my opinion of what happened, I'm not a scientist)

The only set up which kept contact was when I went from a size 20 stripper, to a size 10, to the first guide being a size 12, then back to a size 10 for the rest of the rod. Going to a Bumper of 8 worked, but size 8 is too small for knots to pass on 50# rods.

Obviously I screwed up, but even though I tried tying the line to teh tip, and had another line tied from teh tip to a fixed object to place teh guides - teh bend was different once guides were on teh rod, and once the rod was almost full flexed - the line went fro touching the bottom of teh guide, to lifting off, and this was the problem.

Has anyone else come across this? I almost want to say this particular blank is not a good choice to Spiral wrap. Tehre are other blanks from this same company, which have had breakage issues, shorter 5'6 & 6'6 blank, some were Spiral wrapped. I wonder if the spiral wrap isn't for every single blank, or I just have to spend even more time placing guides, or look for another alternative to teh method I'm using.

I still don't have the whole spiral thing down perfect. Everything sounds so easy till you go do it, and it seems fine in testing, then something changes in reality. Mine have been finding out when I have fish on the end of the line that something needs to be different.

Then again, may just be me. I never have been all that mechanically inclined.

Phil

Now you both got me nervous on this spiral wrap especially on larger salt rods.

Billy do care to mention the blank manufacturer?

Thanks,

Ernie

I left the blank Manu off because I do not think the breakage was a defect - if it was a defect the blank would have broken when I held the tip and had someone try to pick me up.

I have built about 50 spiral wrapped rods, I have another 50-80# (7', teh one which broke was 6'6), and a few 50#'s from the same Manu, the longer length rods were not a problem, I guess because it didn't flex as much in teh area where the line went from top to bottom. I will continue to build all spiral wrapped rods, if you are on teh fence, I would recommend building a few and seeing for yourself if you notice an increase in performance - a lot of people do not notice, do not care, dont' like it, etc. I say come to that conclusion based on your own usage of teh concept, dont' guess at it becase it looks funny.

Phil - I've changed how I get from top to bottom - I tried teh offset stripper, but I found after use the epoxy cracked, seemingly from the stripper being pulled off to teh side of the blank, as opposed to teh top. Regardless of what I read & hear from other people, I know from building and fishing with offset strippers on my rods, tat teh way I build them it is not for me. I also went from 2 trans guides, to one, I had the first 180 further up on teh rod - which works well for fast action rods, but I found with more "bendy" &/or shorter rods a short top to bottom distance works best. For me.

Before I get recommendations for the Bumper, I've built a couple, but haven't fished them yet, I do think this is a good method, I think especially for shorter parabolic blanks - it just didn't work based on teh guides I needed to use for knot clearance on this particular blank.

Thanks Billy,

I was just curious as I do want to make a couple of Spiral Wraps for Stand Up (50-80lbs) and looking at some fairly expensive blanks and would like to avoid any "pitfalls" ahead. I do like my stand up rods between 6 and 6' 6" .

So I take it that you use one transition guide on your spiral wraps?

Also what guides were you using? (roller or std boat guides)

Thanks,

Ernie

Billy - Wow, I'm sorry for your frustration. Did the rod blank collapse quietly, or did it sound like a fire-cracker exploded? ... Alright, first off, I may be confused about exactly where the breakage occurred. In YOUR opinion, did the guide FEET (toes or sides) have anything to do with the location of the fracture? ... If so, What kind of guides were they?

Before I read beyond your first paragraph, I purposefully stopped reading, walked around the apartment, and thought about this for a while. What the heck could it be, I says. ... Well, other than a bad rod blank, something about the guides. Any sign of the feet cutting into the rod blank? ...

If you are using guides heavier than a Fuji BNLG, (like those folded-frame turbo-style [Fuji - BLRLG], which I'd expect on a 50+ lb outfit), the frames of the guides that are sitting under the rod may not be flexible enough when you fully load the rod to keep their toes from digging into the rod blank. ... You don't have an underwrap on yet as a bit of a cushion, and that ain't helping during this mock-up / layout stage. ... Also, if the bumper guide is getting seriously torqued / wrenched around the rod blank, when the rod is deeply flexed, then the side of the guide foot may be cutting into the rod blank.

A small fracture can propagate quickly, just like how a glass cutter's wheel just makes a little scratch, and as soon as you put a small amount of force in the correct place, CRACK - it's over, and it's split.

If the break is nowhere near a guide, then either the blank is faulty, or the guides are too far apart for that rod blank (which knowing you, ain't too likely).

That's my opinion, for what it's worth. With all the guides on top of the rod, like the old-fashioned way for conventional rods with revolving-spool reels, this spearing of the toes into the rod blank is almost impossible, because the guides lie on the OUTside of the bent rod's arc, and never INside it, as it does on a Spiral Wrap. ... And very few people build 50+# blanks as SPINNING rods, so there aren't many numbers of failures at risk. Long heavy SURF rods have a longer arc radius compared to your short tuna rod, so you are operating closer to that threshold for that critical radius that produces failure than the surf rod builder. ... IMO.

"Alright, fellas, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it."
That's my best guess, Buddy.
I hope it sheds some light on the subject.
Best Wishes, Billy V. -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2005 10:12PM by Cliff Hall.

Hi Billy - I just built my first spiral with the guidance of a couple of the guys who really do a lot of them. My rod is FW and not exactly parabolic but when I put the transition guide on it appeared to me I would either have a long flat spot between the stripper and the 3rd guide or what "Felt" like a lot of side torque on the guide. I used BNLGs for the stripper and transition guide then went to single foots the rest of the way to try for max sensitivity. I think if I do any for SW I will go with 2 transition guides. I would think that the more parabolic a rod is the more the transition guide would be of importance. Where did your rod break?
DISCLAIMER: I am not proficient at this area of rod building so please dont anyone take my observations as an attack on the New way of doing things. I am just trying to find its strong and weak points and if it applies to my rod building business.

"teh line tends to come off of the first guide on teh bottom of teh rod" I suppose you are using rollers?

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

Billy,
I do not see any reason why a properly set up spiral wrapped rod should be any more prone to breakage than a conventionally wrapped rod or why any particular blank is better suited to being conventionally wrapped versis spiral wrapped.
If the rod broke due to excessive stress there are several things that you might want to think about.
1. The amount of stress will be a function of how far apart the guides are. The more guides the lower the stress between each guide, but naturally the more guides the higher the weight and lower the efficiency. It is a trade off.
Increasing the distance between guides will increase the stress approximately in proportion to the increased distance, i.e. increasing the distnace 10% between guides will increase the stress about 10%.
2. The faster action that the blank has the higher the stress will tend to be. This is basically just because the total load on a rod, and therefore the stress, will tend to be focused over a smaller area or shorter distance for a fast action rod as opposed to a slower action rod.
3. I know that you know what high sticking is but every explaination that I have seen of high sticking has been over simplified. High sticking is actually a function of the angle between the load and the rod butt, not really a function of how high you are holding the tip of the rod. A rod can be high sticked without the tip held up at a high angle if the load is moved back toward your feet, for example when a fish runs under the boat even with the rod held low.
4. The strength of graphite is higher under tension, top ot the rod, versis under compression, bottom of the rod. Usually you can look at a break and tell if the rod was over stressed because the fracture will be rougher on the bottom than on the top. When a rod brakes because it is over stressed it will almost always start out as a compression break.
5. The strength of a blank is not as high under torsion (torque) as under tension or compression (bending). It is possible to set up the transion guides on a spiral wrapped rod so the the torque is high
on the rod when it is under load but I doubt that this is your problem. A break that is the result of excessive torque will usually be rough all around the break.

The spiral wrap didn't break the rod - improper stress distribution did. You'll have to either use more guides or size them differently. The same rules for stress distribution hold true whether you put the guides on top of the rod or on the bottom of it.

You can use a larger guide for a bumper guide as long you keep it close it close the blank surface. Use a 16 if you must, but reshape the frame so that the ring sits close to the rod blank.

.........

I just read Doc's reply. We must have been typing at the same time. But I completely agree with him that the slower the rods action the more important that the transition guide spacing will be because the slower the rods action the higher the stresses will be toward the butt of the rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2005 10:15PM by Emory Harry.

Get rid of any transition guides and you sidestep that problem entirely.

................

Ditto. Get rid of any transition guides for a much cleaner set up and one that won't have problems. The line doesn't have to be "transitioned" around or under the blank. That's where it would go naturally if you'll only allow it to.

In the article I specified a size 8 guide for a bumper because in the casting style I listed it naturally sits close to the blank. But as several of us have pointed out, you can use any size ring you want because it doesn't do anything except hold the line away from the blank. It doesn't transition the line to the bottom. The line just goes there naturally in this system.

I've taken size 12 guides and used them for bumpers and by bending the legs out and then forming back flat again, the guide sits right down nearly on the blank. So now you can pass knots but keep that line in close and as straight as possible.

Am I understanding this right? Is the transition guide responsible for the breakage? Did I do it wrong by not going from the stripper directly to the second guide on the bottom side of the rod. If I dont use a transition guide wont the line rub on the rod? I guess I better break out the books(magazines) again and get this figured out right. I guess I mis understood what the guys were describing.. I should be able to make it right by only changing one or two guides, if I am getting this right now.

I've been acid wrapping rods for about 5 years now and fish with nothing but. I've tried just about every method of guide placement these guides that I've seen published or mentioned. I've acid wrapped over 50 old Truline blanks(west coast guys will recognize these) which are glass rods made from about 1960 till 1995 are most are parabolic and use these exclusively for my rods up to and including 40# line(over that I switch to Calstar composites).

For about the last 3 years I've used method Sang Ang developed which is as follows approx:
I transition all guides to the left as I'm right handed:
first guide at about 13 deg
second guide at about 35 deg
third guide at about 160 deg
fourth guide at about 170
all the rest at 180 deg
I adjust the second and third guides so that the line clears the blank by about 1/8 inch-basically I'm getting the line underneath tween the second and third guides. I wrap the Calstars the same way. I do this as I don't like seeing the transition guides sticking out towards the 90 deg plane-try to keep them up or down as much as possible.
From what I've read in many of these articles, this method should adversely effect casting however
I've noticed no difference in casting ability as compared to other methods such as the O'Quinn method. Most of my fishing is done casting bait like sardines or chovies. I've never had a rod break on a fish(many tuna to 100#) Guides used are all Fugi SIC, either HNSG or LRSG.
I can't imagine that guide placement could break a rod if wrapped correctly. Seems awhile back that Tom K stated that there is not much pressure on any individual guide which would confirm my belief. but I'm no expert on this subject, just like to build rods and fish them and I wouldn't want them to break cause I'm wrapping them incorrectly.
I just think too much is made on how to transition the guides and there are many different methods and opinions on the CORRECT way to do so. From my experience, all methods seem to work equally well. jmo

Doc,

One method is called the Simple Spiral and it uses no transition guides - the line goes right on to the bottom of the rod and a "Bumper" guide is used only to keep the line from rubbing the blank. It was detailed in one of the recent issues of RodMaker.

I've never seen anyone here say that any particular spiral wrap method was "incorrect." It's sort of like saying that a particular spine orientation is "incorrect." As has been pointed out in many RodMaker articles on the spiral wrap, there are many ways to do the job.

As I said earlier, regardless of which method you prefer, you must still use enough guides to provide adequate stress distribution for the blank. If you have an area on the blank where not enough guides are used (or in Billy's case - where the line doesn't touch one of the guide rings) then the stress that occurs between that pair of guides could result in the blank taking a bend that it wouldn't otherwise take and failure can be the result.

These type situations can nearly always be prevented by using more guides or sizing them so that the line makes contact and "pulls" on each guide that is used.

............

OK, I should have posted more info. On a 6'6 rod, I used 8 guides, HNSG's. A size 20 stripper, and the rest were size 12's for knot clearance. On the 7' rod I tested for seemingly forever, I had 9 guides. The only thing I could do to get teh line to touch wasn't feasible since size 10's do not have enough clearnce fo rknots when reeling in a fish with a load on the blank. There was the stripper at 0 degrees, 8" from that was teh side of teh rod guide, and the next was a 180 which 8" from the side of teh rod guide.

The rod broke between the 1st 180 & the guide which sticks out on the side of the rod - call it what you want. 2 1/2 feet from teh tip. The rod was in a rod holder, and the rod was flexed by the mate standing about 8 feet from the rod, with his hand in the air pulling the line off the rod, it was not high sticked, it was 11#'s of drag. The break was about 2" in front of the guide which sticks out on the side of the rod, based on my testing, the line never touched the first 180 guide, so there was a stress point probably going from the stripper to the 2nd 180 guide, which is what I think caused teh breakage.

When I static deflected, teh line touched all teh guides just fine. When teh rod was flexed and acual pressure was put on teh guides, and the rod went into a deep bend, the line lifted off of teh 180 guide. I've had this happen with other rods, but some adjustment was all it took to fix it. I had one @#$%& of a time adjusting the guides to figure somethign out where the line touched all teh guide rings on these particular rods.

Again, these types of rods have suffered from breakage with spiral wraps in the past, and I bet this is the reason why. I agree the guides weren't placed in the correct spot....but it took me forever to come close to finding a set up which seemed to work on the other blanks, and I wasn't even totally happy with that. What I settled on was basically what Jim Kasteroff posted above, which is pretty much how I used to set them up before I messed around trying to get the guides on the bottom of the rod with one side of teh rod guide.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
>
> As I said earlier, regardless of which method you
> prefer, you must still use enough guides to
> provide adequate stress distribution for the
> blank. If you have an area on the blank where not
> enough guides are used (or in Billy's case - where
> the line doesn't touch one of the guide rings)
> then the stress that occurs between that pair of
> guides could result in the blank taking a bend
> that it wouldn't otherwise take and failure can be
> the result.
>
> These type situations can nearly always be
> prevented by using more guides or sizing them so
> that the line makes contact and "pulls" on each
> guide that is used.
>
> ............

I do understand this, and this is my point - I used enough guides, and was limited on teh size I could use, so this is why I said:

" I almost want to say this particular blank is not a good choice to Spiral wrap. Tehre are other blanks from this same company, which have had breakage issues, shorter 5'6 & 6'6 blank, some were Spiral wrapped. I wonder if the spiral wrap isn't for every single blank, or I just have to spend even more time placing guides, or look for another alternative to teh method I'm using. "

PS - the break was clean, almost like a hacksaw blade cut it. Compared to another rod which broke & I posted pics on last year, tehre was no compression or elongation of the fibers, teh blank seemed to fold. I'll take pics & post tomorrow.

Well, that's not the Simple Spiral Bumper for sure - you've actually got a single transition guide system of some sort going on there.

I'd try the Bumper system on your next one. Take the 90 degree guide you have now and spin it on around to 180. Then go back and put a guide at 90 degrees between those two. I don't really know what you were shooting for, but if you want to try the Bumper system you can't incorporate the Bumper into the rest of the guide spacing - it has to be an addition, not part of the other spacing. I can't imagine the distance between the 0 and 180 guides ever being more than about 10 inches apart, with the Bumper directly inbetween those two.

.......

When static testing, do you want the bumper guide in place or from what I\'m to understand you wouldn\'t even need to add it until afterwards?