Hello Folks,

I am building a fly rod for a customer in return for his working on my irrigation system. He hopes to use it on a Fall Trout trip to the eagle gap Wilderness here in Oregon, which limits my time for building this rod. He wants a 4 piece, 4 weight rod of length 7'6" or 8' and wants to spend as little as possible on materials ( I am contributing only the labor). I am considering the AmTack Matrix, Pac Bay Traditional II, Pac Bay Rainforest, Batson Rainshadow, or Tiger Eye as the rod blank. The Batson Forecast was eliminated due to the blue color, which he doesn't like. I would use single foot ceramics, but after reading Emory Henry's excellent article in RodMaker regarding weight and performance, I am considering the Pac Bay single foot wire fly rod guides in place of the ceramics. The ceramics that I was considering were the Pac Bay single foot Model F or the new American Tackle titanium alloy guides. The latter would probably break my budget,

If any of you have built rods on these light weight blanks, would you give me your thoughts on the use of ceramics for such blanks. Your assistance will shorten the time I need to order materials and building the rod for this project.

Thanks in advance for any and all ideas I receive.

Mike Blomme

I have a client base that insist on light weight rods here in Colorado stream fishing while backpacking. I build mostly 2 weight 4 and 5 piece rods but have completed a lot of 4 weight 4 and 5 piece rods in the 7'-6" and 8'-0" range. Others my disagree but I would not use ceramic guides nor would I use single foot guides. I find the ceramics to look goddy on the rod. I light weight short length rod needs to look like a light rod (and perform like one). Chances are the casts will not be very long on these any way and accuracy is what you are trying to achieve. My cilents tell me single foot guides play mind games with their cast and are not as accurate as double foot, nor do they cast as far. Personally, on light weight rods I would propose using Snake Brand guides. They are thinner and lighter than Pac Bay double foot guides and do not cost as much as the REC Recoil guides. Both REC Recoil and Snake Brand guides allow for an extremely accurate rod with the caster being able to feel a load while casting which is important on small rods (this is what I think my clients are trying to say concerning the single foot guides). I also would only use two wraps of thread in front of each guide foot and as little finish as possible. As to the blanks, I perfer either the Am Tack Matrix or Rainshadow with the Rainshadow being the blank of choice for all my customers. It is way more refined in casting than the matrix. I have been backpacking and fishing for 25 years and when I go now I take my small Forecast and Rainshadow multi-piece rods and I have used them all in this price range. These are just my opions and my not be yours or anyone else's. Hope this helps.

First, let me state a different opinion, traditional snake guides are NOT more accurate nor do they allow for longer casts than single foot guides. Please don't hesitate using single foot wire guides on such a rod, if you doubt me than look at any high end St. Croix fly rod and you will find single foot wire guides. Now for the ceramic vs. wire guides debate, well that subject has been hashed and re-hashed so many times on this board that if you will go to "search" you will undoubtedly find more info and opinions than you probably care to read. For what it's worth (and it's not much), I build a lot of 8' and 8'6" 4 wt. rods and I use ceramics almost always because I like what they bring to the table fully realizing the trade offs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2005 04:21PM by D. Rob Grider.

For price vs. performance with ceramics I prefer Fuji Alconite. Also they are very light. You might try B/CLAG # 10, 8, then 6's to the tip. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2005 03:25PM by Ralph Jones.

Could it be that companies mass producing rods use single foot guides because it is less labor intensive? And, I have not built or cast a St. Criox that I would considered high end in blank refinement or hardware used. As for the garbage comment, that is a matter of opinion along with the discussion of single foot verses double foot guides on small rods in a wilderness environment. As said, that topic has been hashed out a lot.

Mike,

I recommend the single foot wire guides....I have no problems casting my rods with them on it. On a light weight rod both the ceramics or wire single foots are great because they cut down on the weight of the guide but also with only one wrap...you will not have the extra thread and epoxy also. You can definitely feel the difference without that weight in the way the blank feels. If he wants to stay inexpensive I would do wire and a Tiger eye blank....makes a really nice rod....I have 2 of them and love them.

Walter, I meant no disrespect, but there is no factual evidence as to which type of guide is better for casting longer distance. If you have ever seen a European fly rod distance casting event (most std. is a 5 wt rod), you will find every type of guide used and these guys are serious when it comes to trying to eak out that extra meter or two of distance. Also most fly rod manufacturers still use traditional snake guides even though it requires a second wrap only because many people feel that is how a true fly rod should look and so they assume that they must be better because that's what they've always seen but that is slowly changing.

None taken. I agree with you there is no evidence of which guide is better. I was just giving my opinion on which guide works best for me and which guides my clients prefer while fishing in the wilderness. I myself get longer casts with double foot guides on small rods, but we all cast differently and produce different results. Varying opinions are what make rod building fun and are how we refine our art and science of rod building. All though this is the first time I have every posted on this board, I have become a better rod builder because of this site and Rod Builder magazine.

If you are using a blank that is in a lower pricer range it will probably be a bit less sensitive and somewhat heavier than a more expensive blank. This also means that it usually will be less sensitive to minor weight differences between the guides you choose. I recommend and use the ceramics if for no other reason than line wear alone.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

All the debating aside.

I build mostly light weight spring creek type rods for myself and always use single foot ceramics or light wire single foot guides. I must say for my own preferences and style of casting the single foot ceramics are probably the best casting out of the two. I have rods with traditional snakes on them and they in my opinion are junk.

A 4 weight is kinda the breakpoint for the switch from ceramics. I heavily favor REC single foots, BUT I think an argument can be made for double foot RECs on a thin tipped rod. They really bend, and have much less width than the side by side configuration of the SFs.

Michael,

I would go with the Tiger Eye 7'6" 3/4wt, 4pc blank. I have built on this blank and many Tiger Eye blanks and you can't beat them for the price. Plus, the color looks great in the sun. I have built on the Matrix 7'9, 3wt, 2pc, which is another nice blank, but more expensive. It is not, however, a travel blank. I would use single foot guides. I have used the TICH gold single foot offset guides on these rods and they cast great. I would definitely go with single foot guides in any case. For an 8' 4wt rod I would consider ceramic guides, but would be just as happy with single foot snakes. I have built short 6' rods with double foot snake guides and they cast fine. Single foots, I feel, cast better (less line slap).

Russ

I use both on the same rod. I use the ceramics up to the last 3 guides from the tip (or maybe 4 on a longer rod) then use single foots to the tip. the tip is the place to save weight. Many of the ceramic tops are actually lighter than many of the wire loop tops.

If you can stand an ugly tip that performs well a REC recoil tip and 3 recoil single foots and the rest alconite or titanium SIC makes a pretty slick casting rod.

i built a lightweight 7'6" amtak Matrix as a possible fundraiser banquet rod because of the price-made mistake of fishing it, and now it's my go-to trout rod-smooth power with nice feel for short casts-i used traditional style snakes-the light-wire version Pac-bays-because of the original purpose,which was as an @#$%& item at a TU banquet-instead of my usual choice of single foot wires or ceramics-and i can't tell any major differences in performance.I used a green braided graphite pac-bay seat that matches perfectly the color of the blank and i ended up with about $80 in the rod-the rod it replaces most of the time had another decimal place in the price!Give them a long look if you are price plus performance oriented.i'm ordering a 3 pc 6 wt blank today-for myself!

I always consider usability in a pack rod. You're breaking it down and stringing it up more often when out in the wilds. Ask your client weather he uses a tapered or knotted leader. Knotted leaders pass through snakes much easier than single foots, which is something to consider when re-stringing a pack rod every couple hours.