I presently live in Shanghai and Acetone is proving difficult to get. What else can provide the thinning effect on Flexcoat.. will paint thinner do the trick?

thanks, dennis

Can you find MEK (methyl ethyl ketone)? I know some professionals use it to thin Flex Coat, but only the first coat on the wraps.

Dennis, you should be able to get it there, the hard thing is finding someone who knows what you are talking about to translate, Automobile acrylic lacquer thinners will work.

Dennis,

I use denatured alcohol (95% ethyl/5% methyl alcohol). Isopropyl alcohol works too. You don't need very much (2-5 drops in 5 cc of epoxy) to really make a big differnce in the viscosity. I would not recommend the 70% stuff that is commonly sold as rubbing alcohol. You want 100%. I would stay away from actone, MEK, and methylene chloride. These solvents can cause more problems than they can solve and "have no place in rodbuilding"! I think I am quoting Frank O"Quinn.

Ed Smith

Dennis,

I use denatured alcohol (95% ethyl/5% methyl alcohol). Isopropyl alcohol works too. You don't need very much (2-5 drops in 5 cc of epoxy) to really make a big differnce in the viscosity. I would not recommend the 70% stuff that is commonly sold as rubbing alcohol. You want 100%. I would stay away from acetone, MEK, and methylene chloride. These solvents can cause more problems than they can solve and "have no place in rodbuilding"! I think I am quoting Frank O"Quinn.

Ed Smith

Ed,

Ralph O'Quinn would also caution you against thinning your Flex Coat with anything - he would tell you not to thin it at all. Putting any type of solvent into a 100% solids epoxy can cause problems.

Now if you just have to thin it, acetone is, in fact, the one solvent you can just about count on to fully evaporate before the epoxy begins to set. If the epoxy begins to set and there is still any trace of solvent in it, well... now you have real problems. Because Acetone is a very volitile, especially compared to the alcohols, it will typically leave the mix before the epoxy sets.

As far as clean up goes, it is that area where you really only need either of the alcohols.

..........




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2005 10:20PM by Tom Kirkman.

Ed,
I think that you are right about the solvents but I think that you mean Ralph O'Quinn. If I were you I would be careful to quote him correctly and spell his name correctly because I would not want that tough, sharp tongued old bird coming after me.

I've had many more problems thinniing epoxy(not Flex coat, I have never used any of the rod wrap epoxies) with acetone than with lacquer thiinner. I use Epon epoxy to glue up bamboo rod blanks and thinned with acetone, it takes several days to set up and usually required heat setting to fully cure. I now use lacquer thinner and it sets over night just like it does when I don't thin it at all. FWIW
john

Dennis I have thinned my first coat of Flex Coat Hi build for years, but I think MEK would work too. I use 20 drops in a 10cc mix. It takes about 8 hours of drying before I like to mess with it again. Experiment before you do it on your hard work. That way you get to know how it reacts.

You might try some nail polish remover,it’s often 100% acetone.It’s best to stay away from MEK it could easily weaken your rod blank. or dissolve plastic parts.
Regards Charles

I use a mid-temp lacquer thinner with no problems at all.

[Short & sweet Reply (KISS version)]: Whoa !! - Not all nail polish removers are created equal. They are by no means all the same as pure acetone. And thinning FlexCoat (or any other epoxy (finish or adhesive)) by any means, even recommended ones, is a somewhat risky business.

[The Usual Tome (It's about chemistry, how could I resist?)]: WHOA !! ... For use as a thread finish thinner, or clean-up solvent, the kind of nail polish remover found in the cosmetic department of the store, or among your lady's beauty supplies, the kind that is anything but the cheapest "100% Acetone", is probably the most dangerous (unsuitable, WORST) choice out there. That's because "NAIL POLISH REMOVER" usually contains acetone, AND / OR some esters (butyl or ethyl acetate), PLUS some oil to replace the skin oils stripped out by the acetone. This oil could easily leave a residue on a porous surface, and reduce adhesion of any rod or thread finish.

Before you use any solvent, for any reason, especially in rod-building, do yourself a huge favor and READ THE LABEL. Read the CONTENTS / CONTAINS section, and note the names of the components and their percentages, if listed. And avail yourself of the safety warnings. A fire in your rod-shop or a splash in your face or eye could ruin a great deal more than your rod-building project. And poor ventilation will give you a headache, if not just about cross your eyes, or make you vomit.

The esters are nowhwere near as volatile as the acetone. Any oil has virtually no volatility at all for our purposes. These components (ester or oil) would interfere with the polymerization of the 2-part epoxy. It won't cure right. Ever. Period. It's mush - you are SOL (Simply Out of Luck).

As Tom Kirkman pointed out, the solvent selected for a thinner MUST be highly volatile, or it WILL interfere with the union (polymerization, curing, setting, etc.) of the 2-part epoxy thread finish. Really, as far as readily available solvents is concerned, 100% ACETONE is the only one that is qualifed to do the job right, because it is so volatile (evaporates easily, has a very high vapor pressure at room temperatures). It stays around in the mix long enough to reduce the FlexCoat thread finish's viscosity (thickness) and reduce its surface tension (makes it wick into the thread better, sometimes called "wetting", as in the famous "water break-free" surface). But the acetone can evaporate faster than the FC will polymerize, so the acetone molecule will get out of the way of the two uniting epoxy components.

As far as I know, I do not believe that any of the pure ketones or pure alcohols are capable of being an interchangeable molecule in the polymerization reaction. They can't link together in a chain two other molecules, and thus increase the polymer chain length, which is what gives the cured mixture its hardness. A ketone or alcohol may react in the polymerization reaction, but I think it produces a chain TERMINATION, and not a chain ELONGATION. And any water impurity in the solvent water is probably next to useless, if not utterly fatal, as a thread epoxy thinner. ... I have gotten away with using some 70% Iso-Propyl Alcohol (IPA), which is 30% WATER, as a thinner, mixed with a spatula into the 2-part ADHESIVE EPOXY PASTE called PC-7. But that brick mortar is an entirely different chemical system than FlexCoat thread finish, and transparency is not an issue with PC-7 under your reel seat. (Try Rod-Bond gel, which is like butter compared to clay.)

By the way, whenever you add a liquid solvent to another liquid or solution, if it turns milky (opaque), then a PRECIPITATION or EMULSION or COLLOID has formed. The new solvent system you have created by the addition of the new solvent component(s) is either ENTIRELY incompatible with the original components, or has too low a percentage composition so as to shift the balance of solubility in it's favor. By the way, adding any water to a system of organic components is often a recipe for producing a "milky mixture", if not a two-phase system (two separate liquid layers). In rod-building, only small amounts of diluent solvent would be tolerated by the system, considering the need for good polymerization (curing) of the 2-part epoxy thread finish (FC = FlexCoat). When adding solvent turns the FC milky, this is usually NOT a reversible reaction. The batch is spoiled rotten and must be discarded (thrown away).

You may get lucky if you get stuck trying for a thinner a small amount of pure IPA (Iso-Propyl Alcohol), or Denatured Alcohol (91% Ethanol + 5% Methanol + 4% Water) or 95% Ethanol (5% Water), but if you do - you're own your own. LOL. !

Okay, that's it for our little "educational moment". End of lecture and organic chemistry lesson ... for the month, and hopefully a long time to come. If anybody else asks the same question about thinning FC or anything else, without using the RBO Search Feature, which happens at least once a month, the answer will be: "THINK BEFORE YOU THIN. Thinning is not fool-proof. It may be hazardous to your mental health."

The use of a solvent like ACETONE to thin FC (to lower the viscosity and the surface tension, so it spreads more easily and soaks into the guide thread more easily, respectively) should be done at less than 7% (1/15th) of the volume of the epoxy mixture. Visit [www.FlexCoat.com] for more information on their recommendations for how to thin their various products and the proper procedure for doing it.

-Cliff Hall+++, @#$%&Chemistry, with 14 years of bench-top chemistry lab experience in medical research. (Read "grunt work". That's why I went back to school for the Doctor of Pharmacy degree. Lots more grunt work, but more doe-ray-me.)

All I know is a mid-temp lacquer thinner mixes well and I have had no problems with it.
I have not heard of any either. Plus it retards the set time which gives me more working time

FYI: ACETONE is a "methyl methyl ketone" or "di-methyl ketone".
MEK is a "methyl ethyl ketone". MEK is not as volatile as acetone. -Cliff Hall+++

I believe you Cliff but my bottle of nail polish says 100%acetone and I'm happy with it but of course it goes without saying read the label and do some tests just in case. Maybe another solution is to go looking for fibreglass and polyester resin, there is sure to be some acetone nearby.

I always find it amazing all the health warnings I've heard about acetone and then you discover it’s the main ingredient in nail polish.
Regards Charles

Charles Clayton - Amen, cousin. If that bottle label says it is "100% ACETONE", then it shouldn't matter if it was sold as "nail polish remover" in the cosmetics section, or if it was sold as "paint stripper" in the hardware store. Either one would be essentially free of any skin conditioners, and oils or water, or other interfering impurities. Weak colorants might be present, which could affect the clarity of the thread epoxy over a light thread, because most colorants are not volatile as the acetone is. But colorants are usually present in very small quantities, and may not entirely rule out giving it a try. Pure acetone is gin clear, and highly flammable.

Like some other chemicals or drugs, if acetone had been discovered today, it might not be made available to the public. Carbon Tetra-chloride (the old Carbona dry cleaning agent) used to be available. And newborn babies used to get their first hospital bath in PhisoHex (a strong soap with a powerful disinfectant-fungicide, hexachlorobenzene, I think, now recognized as a carcinogen). Not any more ! ... They say if aspirin had been discovered today, the FDA would not allow it to be sold as an over-the-counter new drug. … Like anything, use judiciously. LOL, -CMH+++