Tom, I really found the article you wrote in issue 8-4 of RodMaker both interesting and useful. I have only sold a handful of rods for profit but quite a few others for cost recovery purposes to refinance by building addiction. Still, like a lot of builders I have toyed with the idea of pursuing it from more of the small parttime business angle and the information in your article would really come in handy if I ever go in that direction. More than anything else, though, I really appreciate the openness and willingness of the participating builders in sharing your pricing information. I personally would not really want anyone in my business filing cabinet anymore than I'd want anyone in my bedroom. It's a pretty personal and private thing and you all are to be commended for sharing your information with the rodbuilding community. I'm sure many builders will benefit from this article. There's a lot of food for thought there. Thanks.

Steve

I hate this -- I got about two more weeks till I get mine and want to read about this ??><:"{
Boo Hoo

It wasn't too bad to share that info really. Most of us didn't say how many rods we sold and anyway if you're filing the tax on them there isn't much you've opened yourself up for. What I did notice is that most guys who sell rods aren't getting rich on this hobby-business. It was interesting to compare the prices of the sample rods given just to see where you stand pricewise.

Shawn, this article confirmed by belief that for someone doing it as a part-time business, like I think that most "pro" builders do, it must be a very delicate balance between charging enough that it's worth your time, not so much that you have no customers, and not so little that you have more work than you can handle in your available time and end up all stressed-out. My greatest hestitation about taking it to the next level is turning a hobby that I love into a part-time job that I hate. Like I said, plenty of food for thought.

Hay Steve
In the last artical Tom had a saying I thought was very good:

If you sell to no one -- your prices are to high
If you sell to every one ---you prices are too low

Guess ya got to find a middle ground and feel comfortable.

Yes, Bill, I remember that qoute and it does sum up the situation pretty well. One other thing that I haven't heard discussed much on this subject, is how your clientele changes based on your asking prices. At the risk of ruffling some feathers, I would say that I would be more inclined to enjoy working with customers who are somewhat tight with their money or at least skeptical of the benefits of throwing lots of it around without asking lots of "why" questions. Maybe that's because those are the people I relate to and feel I can understand. One of the few reasons I started building rods was because I thought that fishing rods (factory or custom) cost too much. So, if I ever start up as a business, I would probably be pretty generous in my pricing, just because I'm not so sure I could look myself in the mirror if I charged a lot more than I, myself, thought my work was worth. Yes, folks, you are listening to the rantings of a definite non business major. I should probably stay in the non-business sector. I really can't relate to someone who thinks a $700 rod is a good place to put his money and the handful of people I have met over the years with that outlook were not people I would want to work with.

Hi Steve! I think I know what you mean, but we (G&L FlyCraft) definitely cater to the higher-dollar end, and have been really, really surprised by how cool our clientele is. These guys REALLY know their stuff, for the most part anyway, and appreciate our rods (more accurately our approach) all the more for it. In fact, in the past two years I can only think of one customer Shane and I had the mutual "all-righty-then...ba-bye now" feeling about at the end. We've had guys save for over a year to purchase one of our sticks, and we've had guys discover us and commission 3 or 4 rods on the spot and then come back for more...and the conclusion we've come to is we've got some of the coolest customers in the world. Maybe it's just they really appreciate what we do, so the "flattery" colors our opinion? ;)

Anyway, I can't buy the equipment most our customers do/have, but I think you might be surprised with this end of the market.

Would be remiss not to add my THANKS to Tom and everyone who participated in this project, too.

John

When you say high end - what blanks are you building on ? If I might ask.

The article its self was great. You well notice one thing and that is the variation in pricing. I must assume this do to the years of experience by these builders. What I have learned over the years is this, number one never compete with super stores. Remember that you are a CUSTOM ROD DESIGNER and you are selling a product YOU designed for a specific need and use. It was not mentioned in the article, but I always add a hidden cost to cover any labor if for any reason a rod is returned for any reason (bad finish, bad guide, loose cork or for what other reason). Remember time is money. Pricing labor is an individul thing, but never under cut your self.
Good Wraps Bob

Hey Bill, sorry you have to wait (ha ha!) , great issue

Hey Bob, Lots of good info in that article. In addition to your good point on pricing I also found there to be a difference in price as to WHERE in the country you are selling the rods. The coastal communities and very large city areas are charging and getting a lot more. In the midwest for example you don't find a lot of people willing to shell out big bucks for a spin rod regardless of the quality of the custom rod.

Type of rods also make a difference. Around here fly rods and musky rod buyers are willing to shell out more for a custom rod than the walleye spin and bass baitcast crowd. There are of course exceptions to this statment but location does make a difference.

Just my .02

Buzz Butters

Thanks a lot Buzz

I think your right on the location.
But also Education ! That guy that picks up that WalMart spin rod and figures it is great. There is no little tag on it to tell him he does not have enought guides or they are not set to the reel he will use, that they are heaver then should be and may only last a season or two. Spinning rods being the easyest to use for most, yet are the ones that do really need the concept because of the " pig tails " in the line.

I have also found people complain about $150.00 and others give out $300.00
Also some that don't want them " too pretty " Go figure.

Buzz and Bill you both make good points. One thing I do or did was have my customer totally involved in designing there rod and I explained why I did certain steps. This is why I charge what I charge. I also ask the customer if he had 38 3 windowed Ford and wanted it customized and painted a pearlescent red with fad out flames. Would he take it to Miracle auto Body paint to have the work done or would he take it to a nowen custom body shop. If you are a biker you know you can't get a Orange County county custom bike for less than 60,000 ( that figure may be off) but you understand where I am comming from. You are in a specal feild so do not under cut yourself. If you are a compenate rod designer you can improve any mass produced rod. Just my 2 cents. Do not get me wrong I was in OK a few years back visiting my wif's uncles in Hugo OK. I took along a couple of my Bass rod(these were plain Jan rods) Now these guys have money to burn. Well they told me my rods worked great, but they still liked their Ally World rods. Even tho they had a back shop full of broken rods and rods missing guides. Hey any rod builder living in that area could make a living just in repair work.
Good Wraps Bob

I hear ya Bob
Each person is different with different needs and concepts. Talking to a guy now and with only two times on the phone it was 7' then I heard 7'3" ?? High end stuff, but Fuji SIC may be to pricey ?
And I get confused easy ??:"{_)( Got a feeling there will be many phone calls AND EACH WILL COST ???

I think Jessy James is the one who charges $150,000.00 for his bikes.

Steve,
I actually share your thoughts and have gone to "the dark side" as you fear happening. Over 10 years ago I was charging, and getting, much more than I do now, both in MN and CA. Eventually, I wound up always trying to keep up with demand and I got burned out. Somewhere along the way, I wound up building rods because people wanted me to, rather than me wanting to. Took me a long time to start building again but now I have learned to be able to it on my terms. If I build a rod this week and somebody wants one or two the next week, I don't bend over backwards to make it happen, and will tell them up front that it will take a few weeks, not because I'm backed up but because I have other commitments... even if it means going fishing, sleeping in, getting drunk, etc.

I also charge less now simply because most people around my area won't, or can't, pay much more, and because (maybe I'm getting soft) I don't think a guy should have to mortage his home to get a mid end custom rod built. Personally, I think my work is worth more, at least it used to be, but it's not about the money for me anymore. If a guy is throwing his money around and offers a nice tip when the job is done, I don't complain. But I also like to try and be affordable. My charge includes a basic open diamond or chevron butt wrap. If they don't want it, the charge is the same, only because I love doing buttwraps. Closed wraps and weaves are extra. I used to charge buttwraps separately, but when I see the gleam in an average joe's eyes disappear when he is mentally figuring next weeks groceries, etc... it takes the fun out of it for me. Plus a simple butt wrap really doesn't take much effort or time, and it's my favorite part about wrapping.

After many different methods of charging, it took me too long to figure out the easiest way, which to me is have a general flat rate (which is per guide, single or double foot, and handle work, which also covers materials) on top of cost of parts. That occasionally has a bit of leeway on each side... kid rod discounts, hot girl discounts, jerk surcharges, stupidity fees, etc.. lol What I find most interesting is that often folks will give me a tip that makes the rod cost more than I believe they would have paid up front for. And I would much rather build for barter than cash, but not with complete strangers.

If I were doing this for a living, or to seriously supplement my income, I'd probably do things a bit differently. But after having been there, if you are ever building so many rods in so little time that you grow to dislike it, the only one at fault is yourself. Just be able to say no, and set your own time schedule. Suddenly, it's lots of fun again and you pick up some beer money along the way!

Mick,

Hot girl discounts, jerk surcharges, rather barter than cash....you crack me up! We must view the world through the same hombrew-tinted glasses. Now there is a pricing structure that really makes sense. I'm glad to hear you have found a way to make some money and still enjoy it. Sounds like a good balance to me.

Steve

Waaaaa,at least 2to 3 weeks befor I get the issue and the topics are already discussed,WAAAAAA!

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Fred,
I'm with you! Reading threads discussing articles writtin about in an issue of RM that I am
waiting for just makes the waiting that much more unbareable! WAAAAAAAAA!!

Mick & Steve,
We are also of the same mind set. I am still just a hobbyest who sells rods to keep the hobby from breaking
the bank! I have put a lot of myself (thread art included) into all of the rods I have sold and probably should
have charged much more for them concidering the time involved. I would be much happier trading rods for
other services rendered or other products. I have thought about approching a couple of local fishing guides
about trading trips for rods. That would be so coool!! Win + Win proposition!!

I have also thought about building some "plain" rods without the artistic embellishments but still have the
high performance characteristics that users seek and save the "artwork" for family and friends and of course
myself. The price I have been getting would then be more appropiate I think?

A lot anglers love to see the artwork but are not willing to pay to have it done when they find out how
much extra it is going to cost them. ( this was stated in an earlier thread )

As I said earlier, I can't wait to get my issue of RM so I can get a better idea of how to charge for the "special"
stuff!

Thanks all,

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Although this is a topic for another type of article, it should be mentioned that you can create some very intricate looking wraps without doing anything very intricate. Remember, that to tell the difference in difficulty between things usually takes some training in those things. But to tell if something is well done or not usually only takes a pair of good eyes.

Earlier today, I had someone comment on a test wrap I did for some work with Permagloss. They commented that it was extremely intricate - but it wasn't. It was just simple double diamonds arranged in such a way that it looked intricate. But most fishermen, who don't know what goes into decorative wraps, for instance, would never know that it wasn't on the same level as far more difficult and truly intricate wraps.

if I have a chance I'll post a photo tomorrow to illustrate what I'm talking about. This would probably make for a good article in and of itself.

..............

When I did the pricing exercise my thought was that the requested rods were to have preformed grips and something close to Hardloys on them with plain wraps and no decoration. To me that’s pretty much a factory replica. I told Tom that it was most likely that I would not have accepted a request to build a rod like that. Keep in mind that I don’t do this to pay the mortgage so I prefer to build rods that make me use my bandsaw, lathe, buffer or a magnifying glass to check my thread packing.

I honestly don’t have any preformed grips in my shop. I have a sweet selection of burls and hardwoods on hand all the time. I also keep 500 or so cork rings on hand. I cull out 10% -20% of the best stuff to get as close as flawless as possible for special projects. I always have water buffalo horn, elk antler tips and even some wooly mammoth ivory occasionally.

I’m doing a Burkheimer right now that will have an ivory reel seat with some sweet Bellinger hardware some exotic feathers and a mayfly scrimshaw. I’m doing some testing with a local engraver so any really nice stuff may find it’s way onto the hardware and the tube. These are the kind of rods I like to build. This guy was a referral and I’ll bet my arm he will take me fishing to several of his honey holes. We’ll have a blast and I’ll bring along a few cigars to share. Yes there will be plenty of profit in this rod left over for me.

I really think this is why I build rods. I already have a job so I certainly don’t need another. I really like Mike McComesky way of doing business. I also like his “time to complete” thoughts.

I’ve been known throw something in if it’s something odd that I’ve just been dying to build. If I can convince you to use a wood that I just happen to know a guy that has several caps I’m dying to buy I can get flexible too. If this were how I paid the bills I would very likely do things differently.

Have you ever spent a day pulling boards and picking through burl bins. It only makes the rod building sweeter.

Scott

I understand most of the rod builders are hobbyist on this site. What has not been put in the rod equation is the general over all hidden cost. The cost of electricity, garbage ,rent, telephone, plus advertising. Now don't get your Jerk baits in a up roar. This added comment was for those who are building rods or those wanting to open up a shop for a income or extra play money. I believe most builders work out of their home. Only the serious builders have a store front. Those that do have to charge more than those who build at home. Even tho both have a retail lic. You still have to put all those extras into the rod price equation. Even when buying wholesale you have to buy in quantity to get a decent price break, so shipping and handling well not kill your pocket book. Even if you agree or disagree with my comment please email me your thoughts to Warren334@myway.com
Good Wraps Bob