How much more pressure does stand up rods apply to the fish when fighting compared to the longer rods for the chair? I have seen people get fish in faster with stand up rods. Do the have to be made a cirtain way? Or its it he shorter rod that applies more pressure?

Thanks, Al

Also forgot to ask. I have read and many people have told me that bent butts are better on stand up rods. They are more stable and also create more lifting power? If anyone could explain this for me I would really appreciate it.

Al,
I am only guessing at this but I do believe the shorter rod length
and bent rear grip all have to do with leverage and comfort.

A long rod allows the fish to put more pressure on the fisherman
instead of the other way around! The fish pulls on the long end of
the fulcrum lever with the fisherman on the short end of the stick
shall we say. It's like the fish using a pry bar on you! A shorter rod
of course would lessen this effect.

From a chair the longer rod gives the fisherman more control and
because they are strapped in a hard fighting fish can't pull them off
and into the water.

I havn't built any of these types yet and my answer could be way off.
Just my best .02 cents.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

You would benefit greatly from the volume 5 #6 issue of RodMaker. It's all explained and in great detail. The article also goes into quite a bit of depth about good length and proper harness types for different types of stand up fishing.

Keep this in mind - The load times its distance from the fulcrum is equal to the effort times its distance from the fulcrum. (On a fishing rod, from the fisherman's point of view, the butt end in the harness is the fulcrum. The point of effort is where the fisherman grasps the rod and applies pressure, and the load is the fish pulling on the tip top end. This is a third order lever. Now, to the fish, it is a second order lever. But I'll leave the explanation for the better illustrations in the magazine.)

So, as an example, two trolling rods, one 84 inches in length, one 66 inches in length. Put the point of effort at 30 inches on both rods. 10lbs on the tip of either will generate 28lbs on the 84 inch rod and 22lbs on the 66 inch long rod. Vice-versa, to generate 10lbs at the tip, the fisherman on the longer rod needs to generate 28lbs at his point of effort. The shorter rod would only require you to generate 22lbs to get that same 10lbs at the tip.

But... The longer rod does something else - it requires more effort to generate the same force, but it also moves (recovers) more line per distance traveled. You can't get something for nothing. What you gain in one area, you lose in another, and vice-versa.

...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2005 07:21PM by Tom Kirkman.

Raymond_Adams Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Al,
> I am only guessing at this but I do believe the
> shorter rod length
> and bent rear grip all have to do with leverage
> and comfort.
>
> A long rod allows the fish to put more pressure
> on the fisherman
> instead of the other way around! The fish pulls on
> the long end of
> the fulcrum lever with the fisherman on the short
> end of the stick
> shall we say. It's like the fish using a pry bar
> on you! A shorter rod
> of course would lessen this effect.
>
> From a chair the longer rod gives the fisherman
> more control and
> because they are strapped in a hard fighting fish
> can't pull them off
> and into the water.
>
> I havn't built any of these types yet and my
> answer could be way off.
> Just my best .02 cents.
>
> Raymond Adams
>
> Sacramento, CA
> email: RCAdams1957@msn.com


That sounds about right. Kind of like when you are unscrewing a bolt? The shorter wrench will be harder to turn, just like the short rod will be harder for the fish to pull on?

We typically set the drag on standups at 35 - 40 lbs pounds when chunking for large yellowfin. If you do not have the proper rod set up you can easily place yourself in a position of inferiority when you consider effective leverage. The IFGA rules for fighting fish in competetive events are set up to give the fish and even break. A spiral wrapped tuna stick with everything set up as described in the above referenced Rodmaker articles will allow you to boat a fish in a reasonable time without turning you to a complete puddle of jelly. Take that long rod designed for chair use and hand it to your worst enemy for stand up and watch him give up before you ever see the fish in the deep blue. This is the same thing as Twiggy see sawing with Fat Albert - somebodys got to go up and somebody has got to go down. This is one case where rodbuilding needs to consider engineering principles! The proper rod for stand up can make or break a charter captain who fishes for tuna or for that matter amberjack.

Gon Fishn

Also, if I am not mistaken, for a given rod length, lifting the rod past about a 90 degree arc in the rod's curvature will actually decrease the pressure on the fish. This arc angle is the angle between the line out and the rod butt; it is NOT the angle between the rod butt and the water. If your tuna is straight down, then that means that raising your rod butt very far above horizontal can reduce the pressure on the fish. By what percentage, I don't know. I'll have to defer to the guys who use scales to actually measure that. And this so-called "high-sticking" puts the rod in greater jeopardy of failure. (Good night, ...) -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL +++

Might just be worth adding that bent butts do offer advantages with stand up rods unless you regularily fish on boats with high transoms. When a high transom is encountered a straight butt may offer the advantage more than bent by allowing the rod tip to be lowered more towards the water.

just an aside lines. Stan

The point of a bent butt is to put more distance between the point of effort and the fucrum (butt end). So yes, it can help in the leverage department.

Keep in mind that the IGFA has rules that govern the tackle that can be used in the pursuit of record catches. The distance from the tip of the rod to the centerline of the reel must be at least 40 inches in length. The distance from the butt end to the centerline of the reel cannot be more than 27 inches in length. Bent butts are measured in a straight line, in case you were wondering.

............

When you calculate vector forces the total resultant force is always calculated at ninety degrees application angle. You would use those old algebraic expressions of sine, cosine and tangent to calculate the force changes due to the angle changes when the rod is raised and lowered. These are the forces that strip drag to what ever you have set the reel. If you are fishing for standup rods for tuna it really is essential that you have the right rod with a reel that is routinely scale checked for proper drag set. If you are fishing with a standup that is too long from foregrip to rod tip or the drag is set too light the tuna will be swimming around with his side to you and grinning as your legs and shoulders begin to cramp. What the real game is consists of is putting enough pressure on the brute to turn his head to you and start him in. With his head to you his resistance is minimized. Handling a tuna this way will get the fish to the boat in good shape before his metabolism, due to a prolonged fight, generates enough internal acid to kill him. Your table enjoyment of the fresh tuna will also benefit. - the fish will bleed completely and the steaks will actually taste better.

In South Louisiana we have a fishery called the Midnight Lumps that is a big time tuna producer in the winter. There is a small "lump" in 800 feet of water that the bottom is approximately 200 feet. The size of this thing is probably no more than a hundered acres and there can be over 200 boats anchored and all chumming. There may be multiple hook ups with large yellowfin on the same boat - you gotta get them in without pulling anchor and without them swimming all over the place tangleing up lines. The heavy drag setting is the only way and the standups are required to work fish to opposite sides of the boat. Ten years ago no one had a well designed standup and everyone was fishing with the long trooling chair rods and needless to say very few fish ever came to the boat. If you are a tuna fisherman see if you can remember to do this. On Superbowl Sunday next year while the game is going on hook up to RodnReel.com - go the the reports section - hook up to the live feed from the "Lump" and it will show a video live from the fishing area showing all the boats and the two Coast Guard Cutters assigned to the place to keep a war from starting between the commercials and sport fishermen. What a sight!

Gon Fishn

I had my boat out yesterday to the an area east of the "Fingers" fishing area some 65 nm east of Virginia Beach in the deep blue Atlantic, along the continental shelf drop off. Of course my boat is equipped with a set of custom standup 50lb class standup rods. They worked beautifully yesterday, we came home with a load of YF tuna. We don't use harnesses opting to fight the fish with as little advantage as possible as far as the rod goes.

IGFA rules aside, a standup rod is like any other rod, and in its simplest form it is just a lever. It is a lever that flexes to make its effective length less when under load. This has the effect of shortening the lever of the rod and lessening the load on the ANGLER at any given drag pressure. Get a 6' steel pipe and hang 30lbs on the end of it, and lift it off the ground like as if lifting a fish. Pretty heavy huh? This same weight on a 6' standup rod will cause the blank to bend a certain amount effectively lessening the length of the lever, and thus the load on the anngler's arms.

Bent butts are used mainly on rods used from fighting chairs, due to where the rod is gimbaled to the chair.

Lou

Lou, are your standups spirals? Do you use belts with gimbal mount? If you don't use belts or harness you must have some "hard bodies" holdin on, pumpin and crankin! I admire anyone that messes with these things with no belt or harness. I have no customers or deckhands that can handle a big yellowfin with out a belt. Even with good rods and belts I have very few customers on my boat that ask for a "second" - after one round the statement is "lets eat some sashimi and head on in"! Me - I use only three magic words when a big yellow take hold of a chunk and I let everybody know what to expect when I say - - Here Hold This!

Gon Fishn

Do yourself a BIG favor and get the Rodmaker back issue on this topic. IMO it is the finest article ever written on all aspects of stand up rods. It has the physics, the fighting belts, the lengths, the guide types, the grip lengths and seat locations for just about every different scenario and type of stand fishing done anywhere in the world. This is THE article for any rod builder wanting to understand how these rods work and how to set one up for any person's physical size and fighting harness preference. It could be sold as a book.