I just got two 30lb class rods in for rebuild, built 12 years ago by a an unknown rod builder. Owner bought rods new in SC 12 years ago. He wants new slick butts installed, new rollers, etc. The rods had led a rough life in boat rod holders at sea. Most every part was showing signs of heavy use. I cut away the gimbal, then the reel seat. Both were firmly bonded on both rods. Masking tape arbors were used by the unknown builder. Even though the rods were heavily used in a charter environment these arbors had held up well.

I saw no signs of water instrusion of any kind, no signs of imminent failure, no signs of adhesive failure. In fact when I cut away the tape it was still as fresh looking as new tape. It appeaed to me some sort of liquid epoxy was used for the bonding.

Pictures here show the condition of the masking tape arbors when I exposed them after cutting away the reel seat and gimbal:

Lou


Gimbal:
<img src="[members.cox.net];

Reel Seat:
<img src="[members.cox.net];

Thanks for the info, but after last week seeing a rod with masking tape arbors that failed, I won't even consider them anymore. I'm sure you can plenty of rods with tape arbors that are still in fine shape, but that doesn't mean they all will be. I've now seen several that weren't. The trick seems to be keeping water out and if you can't do that then there is some chance of failure.

"Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while" No offense intended Lou, but I work for a company that manufacturers the stuff and masking tape is not designed to be used for that type of thing. I'm glad the stuff you found has held up and I'm sure most do, but it's just not a good product to use for bushings if you want to absolutely guarantee a no - fail seat mount. The percentage of masking tape failures may be small, but they do happen and probably more often than with any other type of bushing material. Two things will quickly break down masking tape. One is water, the other is dry heat. And you can take that to the bank. When I see builders touting the use of masking tape for reel seat bushings especially on heavy rods I sort of cringe. I know what it's made from and what it will and won't do. Besides, winding tape arbors takes too long. There are faster and more permanent ways that won't fail even if you were to submerge the rod or put it in your hot attic for many years. Isn't it time that rod building in the 21st century leave these crude tape bushings behind? JMO but I think it is. Like I said, my company makes the stuff and I won't use it for bushing material.

Like any thing else if one only needs 1/16 or maybe 1/8" gap filled if covered well with epoxy so water does not get in they may last 20 years? If the gap is larger ya better use arbors.
Some people use 5 min epoxy for there seats - definite No No

I have an old calcutta cane rod my grandfather built and I think he used fingernail polish to coat the wraps with. They still look like new! But I would not use fingernail polish on my custom rods today. I like the way Mick put it, these are modern times and our custom rods deserve modern materials and techniques. We have moved on in the area of adhesives and finishes, blank materials and guide rings and platings. Isn't it time to move on with our assembly techniques as well? I can only answer for myself but after using the Flex Coat arbor system I will not use anything else. They are lightning fast and I am willing to be that they would never break down from water intrusion, heat, cold or abuse. Less than $1 per seat and less than 5 minutes of my time and I have a totally permanent assembly under any and all conditions forever.

I'm an "old school" tape user (...go ahead,stone me!) and firmly beleive that both methods work just fine as long as the builder "preps" the blank and uses alot of epoxy...keyword: "alot". Either method will fail miserably if not enough bonding agent is used...... .02 cents

Should not use " a lot " of epoxy

Why not?.....added weight?

Hi guys it is just me the Neanderthal, I like Mike have always used tape as arbors. First 30 plus years ago I used meat packing tape that you had to lick and stick and now I use masking tape. I build rods that go on long range yellowfin tuna trips with the guys battling fish over 300lbs from a stand up position. My rods have also been used to a great deal fishing in Baja for Blue and Black Marlin. This is all just to let you know they get heavy use. In all the years I have built custom rods I have NEVER(a word I hate to use) had a failure. The Key here is not the masking tape the key is the fact that the epoxy is what is holding the reel seat not the tape. The tape is only to keep the seat centered on the blank. I use a long cure epoxy and Fill each channel between the tape. Anyone who has seen my DVD knows what I mean. It is a fact that masking tape will break down under all the conditions noted above, heck I have had it break down on my shelf but that is not what I count on to hold the seat.

It might come as a surprise to any of you that even using the best arbors there can be a failure if you dont do things right. I think the term is "user error". Bottom line is BOTH systems obviously work and BOTH systems can fail if they are done wrong. As for speed I am usually not in a hurry since I usually end up spending Hours putting a weave on a rod.

Lou did the rod come from the west coast?
Ken - No need to worry about water if the sections are filled with epoxy
Mick what tape company? I will let you know if I have ever used yours.
Bill you are absolutely right, 5 min. @#$%& and long cure is much better and easier to fill gaps.
Richard key with grandpas rod is whatever he used worked or you wouldnt have such a wonderful keepsake. Hope our stuff holds up for our grandkids.
Michael make room for me against the wall with you.

By the way HAPPY 4TH OF JULY TO ALL OF YOU

I will return to my cave now

Yes. Just like any thing. Rod Bond you only need a thin coat. Still got it on my coffee pot. Over a year no leaks
If you have a large gap, fill with an arbor Also good prep. of the parts to be glued.
When I do use tape, I use 1/4 in

Hay Doc, stay out a while we like to hear from you. It is got to be damp in there, LOL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2005 01:12PM by bill boettcher.

Eariler this spring I took in a custom flyrod to repair. It was on a Fenwick fiberglass brown blank built in the '60's The male ferrule was crushed so I had to remove and rebuild the fighting butt to get a sleeve of scrap inside to rebuild the ferrule. The point being, the grip, reelseat and the fighting butt all had soft gummy masking tape under them on the blank. My customer wanted no cosmetic changes, so I pulled off the reelseat and grip. Easy, just a slow gentle twist and pull and then I cleaned the masking tape residue off the blank. I was able to put E thread under the cork to get a good fit there. then I used cork rings, probably a #4 on Tom's three picture cork scale but very good for the odd arbor and the new fighting butt was a good snug fit. All that shows of this is three rings of cork in the fighting butt. In this case the masking tape was in the midst of failing. I've used masking tape in the past before I learned here to use materials better suited to the purpose. So far, none of them have come back, but I still use newer tech. and materials when they prove to be better than the old. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

Thin glue lines will be stronger than thick ones. It all depends on what you're using the epoxy for. If you just want to coat and cover the tape, then yes, you need to add a lot of epoxy - not to make the bond stronger (it won't) but to encapsulate the tape bushings to hopefully prevent water from ever undermining them.

Tape arbors and bushings obviously work, or the major manufacturers couldn't get away with using them as much as they do. But they also fail more often than most other methods. Of course, some failures are the fault of the rod builder or person doing the assembly.

All in all, winding individual tape arbors and filling in gaps with epoxy is much more time consuming and more costly (epoxy amount) than something like the Flex Coat arbors, and not guaranteed to be permanent. But it's a choice each builder has to make for him or herself.

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One of the beauties of this site is the chance to learn from people who really know the what why's and how's. I have learned more from reading Ralph O'Quinns information on adhesives and epoxys than I'll ever use. Everybody has their own ways of accomplishing the rodbuilding tasks and most work well. But if it takes no additional time or effort to do the job in the best manner, why not do it????? Yep...there really is a right way to use the stuff we use. And if you want to learn from the best ,Mr. O'Quinn has my vote.

Doc, the rods I am rebuilding came from Charleston, SC area. They were fished there for a number of years, and then wound up in Virginia some years ago where they continued seeing heavy use. It would have been cheaper to build new ones, but you know, some of these rods have certain mojo that makes them worthwhile to rebuild....

As you might have guessed I too am a long time masking tape arbor user. I too have never had a reel seat failure using masking tape. In fact I have never had a reel seat bond failure at all - period (knock-on-wood). I have several ocassions where I have had to rebuild older such as these two with masking tape arbors and have not seen one where the reel seat or gimbal has come loose. I can come up with examples, ie. pictures, where assemblies using masking tape arbors have held up, but cannot come up with ONE where it has not. If I did I would be intensely curious to study what caused its failure. I have heard all the horror stories of rotten masking tape, loose reel seats, failing bonds, but have yet to see one first hand. I'l like to see one, I would take pictures and make them available here for all of use to see.

I have used masking tape for everything from an ultralight to heavy unlimited class - the kardol paste epoxy bond is so strong I doubt it makes any difference whether there is a piece of tape under a reel seat, slick butt sleeve, or gimbal.

Doc Ski hits the nail on the head when states that the masking tape's only purpose is center the reel seat on the blank, the epoxy is what does all the bonding and holding. Once the epoxy cures the presence of the masking tape becomes irrelevant. The epoxy in between the masking tape gaps provide the bond.

I agree, a reel seat failure, masking tape or otherwise, can only be attributed to poor assembly to begin with.

I still eyeball all the spine alignment on all the rods I make. Does not using the new spine finder technology make the end result inferior? I guess there will some folks that will argue that it does.

Lou
Va Beach, VA

I use to take photos of all the various rod and seat failures that I came across. I probably still have a bunch showing failed masking tape bushings. I'll have to dig them out and see what I can find. It was certainly a small percentage of all the rods that came through the shop, but of the ones that did have seats or butts fail in some manner, 99% had masking tape underneath.

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My first rods were built with masking tape bushings. As I got more involved in rod building and learned better methods I switched to cork bushings which I feel are superior on a number of counts. I have also used some of the brick-foam arbors and like them nearly as well.

There are two types of people in all types of endeavors. Those who believe in doing things the same way they've always been done and those who continually push the envelope. Neither is wrong and both are right but it is the latter group that paves the way for advancement and better ways of doing things.

My question is, as I use all three methods, graphite, Flexcoat and masking tape. Everyone says masking tape isn't designed for that purpose, but looking at the graphite and Flexcoat arbors neither are these. At least with the graphite arbors you are able to fill the cavity with epoxy, but if you use a full flexcoat arbor the structural make up could fail just as easy, maybe even easier.

I started with tape, originally making full length arbors. These first couple failed after a while because structurally the tape bushing is not stiff enough. The next few attempts saw me use smaller bushings and fill the gaps with epoxy. Had to take extra care to make sure all the channels were well filled. These were far stronger. Never had one fail, probably because I left the ends of the seat tube open and filled that with epoxy as well. With a water break free surface throughout, the excellent adhesion makes the joins watertight. Later I found cork, wood and graphite arbors to be plenty stiff and strong enough, and began using those. Still filled the gaps with epoxy. The amount of epoxy used does add weight though, and having since seen that thinner glue lines ar better than thick, I used the full length Flex Coat arbors. Reamed to fit the blank, and fitting snugly into the reel seat, you get two thin full length glue lines. I glue up everything, give it a spin around to evenly spread the adhesive, then position and let it set.

Since moving into using my ergonomic seat inserts for skeletons on my spin rods, I turn the entire insert and arbors from cork or wood, or a combination of both. I get the same effect: thin glue lines from a correctly fitted insert and reel seat.

Myles the others ARE designed for that purpose. They won't fail and thin glue lines are stronger than gaps filled with epoxy. We know that for a fact. I would say that someone could still do a bad job adhering the brick foam or FC type arbors and something could come loose, but the arbors themselves aren't going to fail. They are not affected by water, heat, cold or age. Tape is.

When using tape as arbors IMHO it is best to use 1/4 " tape. Put your turns about 1/4" 1/2" apart instead of one continous arbor.
This way the tape centers the seat, but also you have small rings of epoxy that hold the seat and glue it " small gaps "
Large gaps use a graphite or the flex coat arbors.