I read Emory's CCF article with interest in the recent RodMaker. I also recall several times on this board reading Bill Moschler's design ideas on fly rod guide layout. He says he's had good results using ceramics down low on the rod and using extra light Recoils near the tip to optimize damping properties and the crisp feel of a light tip that stops when your hand stops. I'm sure you can get similar results with using all titanium alloy framed ceramics but they are expensive and I could not build as many rods : (

Well, I had two rods leaning in the corner that I always felt a little disappointed with (Emory's article refers to them as "dogs" - no offense to all the great canines out there). The blanks impressed me when they were naked, but I never really liked the rods I made from them. They are both 9' IM6 graphite fly rods, one with a DBI of 4.6/69 and the other at 5.6/70. In other words, just the type that Emory says are especially vulnerable to too much weight in the tip (long, low power, soft tips). I had them built with inexpensive #6 chrome framed ceramics. I just removed the tip top and the top 4 running guides and replaced those with light wire single foot guides (didn't have any Recoils or would have used them). 2 coats of Gudebrod varnish on short wraps - extra low build. Man, what a difference. No more post-stop wobble and much more pleasant to swing. They look a little odd but are vastly improved casting tools. I did not take any CCF before and after readings so can't quantify the difference but it was striking to me and I think anyone would have noticed a big difference.

Thanks to Bill and Emory for your ideas and sharing your R&D with the rest of us. Very helpful ideas.

Steve

The one thing I saw in your post is you had Chrome guides on.
Any guides that have any plating on them will be heavier. Yea they look pretty - but heavier
The Titans are not as costly as the fuji's but you will need a fuji tip top to go with them.

They were Fuji OG style guides (chromed frame and Hardloy ring) that are virtually identical to the Forecast chromed frame H-ring fly guides. They work great on many of my other rods that are shorter and with more moderate or moderate-fast actions (tips not as soft). I'm finding I don't like them on the long, fast action rods unless the ERN is up in the 7.0 and higher range. They seem to make the tip bounce around too much.

" chrome frame " heavy. Polished are better lighter. I find that a lot of guides before they are chrome plated they seem to also have I think it is brass plating first, then the chrome. To much plating too heavy. That is why I say the Titans or recoils or a polished guide is better. No plating less weight.
Maybe even a forecast polished framed guide with a colored ring

6 mm single-foot guide costs (from Merrick)

Fuji SIC TSG $3.32 X 10 = $33.20
REC RSF $2.35 x 10 = $23.50
Pac Bay snake CSN (tit carbide) $1.38 x 10 = $13.80
Fuji Alconinte BLAG $1.21 x10 = $12.10

knowing that your extra $20-30 results in a crisper fly rod- priceless

Come to the dark side Steve- you know the Fuji SIC's are calling... I even have a few extra Gold Cermets that you could try, you know you want to..

Steve,
You are getting with experience, feel and intuition to the same place that I got. The added weight is going to have more affect as the rod gets longer and also more affect as the action gets faster.
Next I am going to have you measuring the resonant frequency.
The tip bouncing around is really the damping or damping factor but the variables that determine it are the same ones that determine the resonant frequency.

Hi Steve,

Long time no speak. I greatly believe in this concept and use it to some extent with very lightweight rods. I think that using single foot ceramic strippers in the butt of the rod, small single foot wire guides in the tip section and a ceramic tip top gives you the best of both worlds. You get the smoothness of the ceramics in the critical butt and tip, with the diminished weight in the tip section from the wire guides. I have a Pac Bay Tradtition 6.5ft 2wt, a 6'10 3wt, and a 5ft 1 pc. glass rod built with this guide setup and they perform great.

It is even more beneficial with the longer, softer blanks.

Tight lines and wraps.

Lou

Good morning Mike, Emory, and Lou. All good ideas and why the R&D component of rodbuilding is the most satisfying part for me. I am turning into Captain Prototype. A rodbuilding superhero who is gradually discovering all the things everyone else has already discovered - sort of a second tier superhero (or third).

Mike, if I played the blues guitar or harmonica, I would write something about "titanium frames on my rods but no shoes on my baby's feet..." Maybe Andy Dear can put those lyrics to music.

I've been striving to lighten the tip by using Recoils, smaller guides and fewer guides. My most successful result so far has been a Dan Craft Signature V 8'4" 3/4. After considerable time I worked out a spacing with only 9 total guides, five of which are on the tip section, but one directly on the ferrule. I used the RSN snakes, however the wraps are only 1/4" wide, and the finish is the minimum that will cover the threads. The first guide from the tip is 5.5", which looks too far, but it casts just fine.

I really like the Recoils for weight and flexibility, however I am finding the noise from the friction of the line running through the guides more and more annoying. It seems to worsen as the line gets dirtier. Would the combination of the SIC and Recoils diminish the noise? I just received another of the 8'4" blanks, and I am planning on building it for a friend using the Snake Brand snakes in chrome finish. IThis evening i'll weight the RSN and Snake brand guides to see just how great the difference really is.

Dan, combining the ceramics and wire (whether SIC or other ceramic or Recoil or other wire) does diminish the noise but it is not as quiet as all ceramics. ZipCast is keeping my line clean and slick all day on the water. I recommend it if you haven't tried it. Just fished the Potomac River for smallmouth for three days straight, 10-12 hours per day, hot sunny weather. Cleaned it each night back at the motel and the line performed great.

I wish I could say that I spend even a few minutes of my evenings cleaning my lines, but. . .. I will try ZipCast, however, because clean lines definitely reduce the noice from the Recoils.

I just finished weighing different guides that I have on hand, and I post the results for consideration by those interested in the effect of guide choice/weights on rod recovery. The fewest number of guides weighed was four, the most was six. The first weight stated is the average weight per guide. The second is the total weight of five guides. The third is the total weight of six guides. I report this because some may be building rods with six guides on the tip section. I weighed guides I use and have on hand. I had a three or four weight rod in mind. I am not suggesting I would use Fuji SG guides on a four weight, any more than I would use RSN's on a 12 weight.

Recoil RSN Size 1 0.80 grains 4.0 grains 4.80 grains
Recoil RSNX Size 1 1.12 grains 5.60 grains 6.72 grains
Snake SBSGC Size 1 1.22 grains 6.10 grains 7.32 grains
Fuji TSG Size 6 2.36 grains 11.80 grains 14.16 grains
Fuji SG Size 8 5.6 grains 28 grains 33.60 grains

What I do not factor into this is the weight of the tip guide. Considering that the weight at the end of the rod will impart the most momentum energy, the tip weight should not be ignored. I just don't have many on hand. I have weighed them in the past, and there is a wide variation. Some tubes are longer than others, and loop size also varies.

The difference betweena four and five weight line on the AFTMA scale is only 20 grains. The difference between a four weight XPS line and a four weight GPX line is nominally 10 grains. I cannot speak to tapers. Perhaps guide selection can be compensated for in line choice? I don't know. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

Dan,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to measure and post these guide weights. No doubt line selection can influence the feel of a rod, to make it feel more or less crisp. I'm a big fan of the CCS and also experimentation with lots of lines on the same rod. I think it helps me learn the strengths and weaknesses of each rod better and makes me a better caster by paying attention to those things. Of course, when you are on the water you can change lines but you can't change guides so it's probably always best to have the rod built to maximize crispness for your given budget. Then you can adjust line and casting range to get the feel you like best.

ZipCast will be your friend. All you do is strip the line off through a cloth moistened with ZipCast and then reel it back on through the cloth. The whole process takes about 90 seconds. I used to be lazy about line cleaning but now this is just way too easy and effective not to do it.

Steve

Who makes zipcast and who sells it please?

Cheers
John

New Zealand

Link on the left at the bottom of sponsor list. Tom Kirkman sells it.