I previously posted this under the "Demonstration" Topic. I'm reposting it here because it's important to show the rod twist due to guides mounted on top of the rod. Rod twist is exactly what Spiral wrapping eliminates.

Capt Neil Faulkner demonstrates just how bad top mounted roller guides can twist a rod. Click on the following link to see that the rod twist even caused the line to come out of the roller Vee's and hit the side of the guides., plus the rod tip was almost an a 90 degree angle. Capt. Neil was pulling on the line sideways to simulate the way a big fish can pull. Just imagine how many BIG fish have been lost due to the line breaking due to the rubbing on the side of the guide frames.

Click on this link to see the photo ----> [members.cox.net]


John Mantele (aka: @#$%&)


Photo Courtesy of Capt Neil Faulkner - Master Rod Builder Sayville, N.Y.

I don't think that informed rod builders have ever doubted that having the guides on top of a rod can result in the rod twisting. Over the years I've removed and replaced dozens of roller guides that had bent and twisted under the wrap due to this same thing. No proof required, just common sense. And more than any other type rod, the really big stuff needs to have the guides on the bottom of the rod.

Okay, but that's not a good photo. Puling on the line sideways isn't what the fish does. The fish is down and below the rod, not off to the side. The angler is always above the fish. But the guides and rod will still twist, just not exactly in the same way that the photo shows. You could even twist a spiral wrapped rod if you pulled on it in that same direction. Stay below the rod, just like a real fish would.

Agreed. Very bad photo. No fish would ever pull on the rod that way. Too high. The fish would be pulling from under the rod no matter how far off to one side it might be. In that situation the line will still try to twist the rod or the guides but it won't get up against the side of the frame as this photo shows. This isn't a good representation of what takes place during an actual fish fight.

I'll be the first to agree that rods with guides on top will twist and torque, but this isn't a good photo to depict the problem. The height and angle of pull just isn't realistic.

I have to say its a bad photo as well, but not for the reason said above. I can actually see that scenario: Trolling. Rod is set in a angled rod holder and the fish hits, but ONLY if the rod was set in the holder improperly. When I lock my gimbal into the holder, I do it so the line would be coming straight off the rollers and reel. This could happen in the same rod holer, but with the rod placed differently.

To those that say the pictured shown in the link is a bad representation of a real fishing situation...I will dissagree. I wish it were so easy that all fish could be forced to hit only directly under and away from the rod tip. The picture shows what can happen in a VERY real trolling situation when dealing with large saltwater gamefish. It looks to me that if lateral preasure were not being applied, the picture would show the rod properly placed in the rod holder...facing aft. We have to remember that a gimbaled rod, when placed in a holder, is essentialy locked in place. As fishermen we can't ask the fish to only hit our trolled baits by only swimming with or straight away from the boat.

The two largest fish most of us will ever encounter are the blue marlin and the bluefin tuna. With marlin you often have the opportunity to see the fish before the strike. Actually it is fairly essential that you do see the fish for a good hookset. Still, sometimes a marlin will come up & hook himself. These fish will go lateral in a nanosecond...hard & fast. This will certainly put a bend in the rod that looks very much like the picture John shared. When trolling for bluefin you generaly don't see the fish before the strike. You'll see a big boil and the rod tip goes one of three ways...straight down, hard left, or hard right. You have a 66% chance that the rod tip is going to bend HARD to one side & only a 33% chance it is going to bend straight down. Unlike when marlin fishing you gear up for bluefins with heavy tackle set for extreme duty. Believe me if a big bluefin hits the starboard short while running in a starboard direction (strike drags will most likely be in the 30-45# range) the rod WILL bend exactly like the picture. Generally we get the rod out of the holder ASAP, but it only takes a few yards rubbing on the frame to sufficiently weaken the line to a failure point. When you 'bump' the drag up to 65# or more and the line parts you can only guess that the guide frames had at least a part in the loss of your fish.

To me this picture depicts a very real fishing situation. As rodbuilders we sometimes get too used to the standard deflection test of pulling straight up on the rod and forget the real world situations the rod might actually encounter.

This is just my opinion on whether or not the picture John supplied actually depicts a real world fishing situation. Since I've seen this very thing happen on multiple occasions (mostly with bluefins in the 150-400# range) I can honestly say that YES it does show what can happen out there.

Jay



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/2005 11:40PM by Jay Lancaster.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but for me, all the trolling I've done, the fish were on, usually the boat was still going fast enough and there was enough line out to where the line was still behind the boat, at least until the rod could be taken out of the rod holder and put into the chair or harness. If you have a situation like this and your in a harness, its gonna be bad news cause the rods gonna slip out of the gimbal, and theirs not much excuse for it if your in a chair.

I'm not saying that rods don't twist now, I mentioned watching the tips of mine twisting and having to twist the rod a hair to keep the line perfect on the rollers, but I don't feel its a good picture to show the fact he mentioned.

Phil

I gotta say that us West coasters don't use rod holders on long range boats when trolling and therefore would not encounter such a situation you folks describe when trolling. On the west coast long range boats trolling rods are clipped to trolling straps attached to the stern rail and they hang down from the straps and are able to move left or right depending on where the fish goes. Shortly after hookup, the rod is removed from the strap but even if it were to stay in the strap for awhile, you'd never see such an angle as in the picture as it would not be possible.

The rod in the photo isn't twisted as much as it's flexed off to one side. That's a different problem entirely and one that rollers, mounted top or bottom, have a hard time dealing with.

Most of us that have worked on many trolling rods can say that bent and twisted roller guide frames are quite common. This is just another example of how the line under a load, is going to do everything it can to get to the bottom of the rod. It will twist the rod, twist the guides, break the wraps loose, etc., but it will seek to move to the bottom of the rod. Gimbals are the best solution to keep things from going awry when this all happens, unless you want to spiral wrap the rod and pretty much put the line where it wants to be in the first place.

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When tuna begin to fly, I will worry about a rod seeing a line path like that... And even if you do a spiral wrap, a rod locked down in a rod holder will have lateral line contact if a fish runs sideways (to the boat). However- when trolling, the drag of the reel is set fairly light. The line can touch the side of the guides and not be in great danger of parting while the rod is still in the holder. It's during the fight, when the drag is at full working pressure, that it's really critical.

Yes, there is some torque on regular roller guides. But any angler with a lick of sense would be able to keep that rod from ever being in that sort of position- even on the aforementioned flying tuna. It's not a realistic depiction.

I've got all the proof I'll ever need - on video! Had a mako straight down under the boat and I was on the rod trying to bring it up. The rod was on sold buy an American company that sells a lot of rods and reels. It was a standup built with Aftco rollers . The guides torqued over to the side with the tip section of the rod really twisting way over. We landed the fish, but not before it managed a short run that put enough twist into the tip section to shorten the rod by 7 inches or so!

The bad part of the story for us (custom builders) is that the manufacturer replaced the rod (which had been purchased used!) for free, no questions asked. How does the custom builder counter that?

I think the best way to counter it, is by telling the customer that you will build your rods correctly - they won't encounter such a problem to begin with so there is no down time in waiting or having to obtain a replacement.

Granted, free manufacturer replacements are tough for custom builders to compete with, but you can still bring up the issue of what a guy does while waiting for that replacement. Any rod can break, but they shouldn't break due to a bad design.


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The problem with a replacement rod is that it will be as badly designed as the damaged rod. Personally, I don't enjoy using tools which I know are not reliable.

Very good point and one that should be pointed out to the customer. The same design flaws that were incorporated into the first, will be present in the second as well.

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