I've been building spiral wrapped bass rods for 6 or 8 years now with a very similar placement as the best combination I could come up with by reading everything in both 'Rodmaker Magazine' and this site. And by building (or rebuilding) different lengths, 5 - 5 1/2ft. old worm rods, up to 7 1/2 pitching or flipping sticks and others. I built 35 or 40 rods to test from seven or eight blanks or old rods. The best I came up with was to do it the same way you did in the article, except to use two transition or bumper guides at 60 and 120 degrees instead of your simpler method. However, I didn't go any further and try your way. Dad drat it, you've given me more work to do. LOL. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2005 11:15PM by Ralph Jones.

I would drop the transition guides. A 60 and 120 degree method will certainly work fine, but it's nothing at all like the bumper method. Your 0 and 60 degree guides are redirecting the line to get it around the blank, the bumber method puts a bumper guide at 90 degrees, but it is not involved in any transition nor does it redirect the line in any way.

I have a feeling that once you try this method, you'll drop your other ones. This method may not sound like anything new, but in most all cases, it really is. Don't think of it as a spiral with a 90 degree transition guide - that guide isn't there to transition anything nor does it.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2005 06:13AM by Tom Kirkman.

Tom

Reading and rereading the article and looking at my own design, I see what one of the problems may be in understanding this bumper or shoulder guide concept.

In my first attempt at a spiral wrap, I too used only one guide set at 90 degrees after the butt guide to transition the line underneath the rod. The difference is that in my method, the second guide or transition guide was considered one of the working guides on the rod and placed accordingly whereas in the the method in the article, the bumper guide is inserted into the normal guide placement in order to accomplish the line movement. It is a small difference but comparing my rod with the photos, the bumper guide appears to be a more efficient way to take the line to the underside of the rod.

I am building my first spiral and have one thought that keeps haunting me. With one guide at o degrees and the next guilde at 180 degrees, will the line ever come in contact with the rod on the retrieve?

John Keys

John, that is why they put the guide at 90 degrees at a spot where it doesn't interfear with the natural line path.

Jay

I'll try 90 degrees.
Thanks
John

Even after reading the article I misspoke. I turn the second and third guides from the butt at the 60 and 120 degree points with the fourth guide at 180 degrees. I didn't look closely enough at the diagram. After rereading the article I see my mistake. I see I must place the bumper/transition guide between the butt and second guides! This is quite different from what I've been doing. I'll start changing one of my spiral rods to this pattern tonight after I cut the yard. Sorry for the mistake. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

The 90 degree bumper guide does not transition anything. It does not take the line under the rod. You could remove it completely and the line would go to exactly the same spot in exactly the same way. The purpose of the bumper guide is simply to keep the line from rubbing the blank as it skirts by it on one side. Richard's overview is quite good.

I can see that those who don't actually have the article are going to be confused by the placement and purpose of the 90 degree guide, but I guess that's one advantage of subscribing to the magazine. You just can't readily do in a message board post what you can do in a magazine article.

The easiest way I know to describe it (and the way I described it to Bill) is to put your butt guide at 0 degrees and all the rest at 180 degrees (don't even think about a guide at 90 degrees). Space them just like you would if you were building a rod with all the guides on top. In fact, set it up that way first, setting your spacing by static means and all guides on the 0 degrees axis. Now spin all but the butt guide to the bottom (180 axis). Do not adjust the spacing you arrived at earlier.

At this point just go fish it, or if you're worried about the line rubbing the blank between the 0 and 180 degree guides, add the smallest and lowest frame guide you can find at 90 degrees and exactly halfway between the first and second guide. Do not adjust spacing.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2005 05:46PM by Tom Kirkman.

I got that when I reread the article and looked at the illustration. Thank you, Tom for the correction on the transition thing. I'll still rebuild one of my older style spiral rods tonight, or at least start on it tonight. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

Tom,
I am not sure that I follow how the second guide can be the smallest guide available with this approach. With other guide positioning approaches we gradually step the guide sizes down because all of the motion of the line is not straight down the rod, there is a small amount of line motion at 90 degrees to the rod and we want to reduce this guide by guide while at the same time minimizing line contact with the guides and the friction that results. How is it any different with this approach? I would think that a normal sized guide as the second guide with it positioned so that the bottom of the guide just barely keeps the line off of the rod would work better. What am I overlooking?

Emory

I did some casting this afternoon off of the back deck and watched the line very closely. My butt guide is a #12, the bumper is a #10 and the first guide underneath is a #10. I was using 40lb braided line. It was amazing how easily that #12 brought the line under control. If I were building this rod again, I would most likely try starting with a #10 butt guide, then down to #8 for the bumper, another #8 for the first under guide and then on down from there. Watching the line, I was able to see how the bumper does nothing more than hold the line off of the side of the blank. When the line got to the bumper guide after passing through the #12, it was essentially, calmed down. And based on what I saw this afternoon, a double footed #8 would work just fine for a bumper and not inhibit the line flow.

The bumper guide doesn't even need a ring. You could cut the guide and half and it would still do the job. All it's there for is to keep the line off the blank. I can't see any need to use larger than a #8 and it MUST be very low frame. You do not want to move the line out and away from the blank. You want it right up next to the blank but the ceramic ring will give it something to rub against that it can't wear away. The only place the line will ever touch this ring is directly in the very bottom. If the 90 degree bumper guide alters the line course in any way or redirects it in any way, you've done something wrong.

Richard,
Yes, I can understand that. The first guide is the one that will do most of the line taming. And particularly with braided line it makes sense that you could get by with smaller guides. What I do not understand is how you can get by with a very small second guide with a spiral wrap. If you can then I would ask then why not use the same size small guides all of the rest of the way to the tip and save some weight.

Emory, On my method the bumper guide does not act like a normal guide. It does not control or contain the line. It only serves as a bumper to keep the line off the blank. The line is only going to touch the guide in the very bottom of the ring so it will never know what size guide it's passing through there. It has no idea if it's a #8 or a #25. So, you might as well use the #8 plus the fact that it will sit lower and keep from moving the line out and away from the blank any more than necessary.

There is no reason to gradually reduce guide sizes. This is something I've picked up from articles in RodMaker. The days of doing 16, 12, 10, 10, 8, 8, 8 and that sort of thing are long gone for me. It doesn't make any sense. You'd be better off going 16, 10, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8 like that. Or even leave out the 10 and use another 8. Fishing line doesn't completely fill up a guide ring. It only occupies a very small area so most guides we use are actually way too large. Frame height is important, but ring size not so much.

Now this is just for guide sizing in general. On the bumper system you have to forget about the bumper guide being part of the guide set. It's an addition to rather than a part of the rest of the guides. All you want is something there for the line to rub against rather than the blank. Remember that there are no transition guides with this system.

I should mention that for all I know other spiral wrap methods may be more technically correct or appealing but I do not think you will find another one that works any better than this one in any way, shape or form. You certainly won't find any other spiral wrap method that is this easy and straightforward to set up. The "Bumper" spiral wrap method is a practical and highly workable system that will never let you down and doesn't require any special knowledge about spiral wraps in particular. It is a great example of the KISS principle. It bypasses all the nitpicking and technical tweaks that so many of us were spending far too much time on for things that didn't matter at all in actual use. I can't speak for anyone and wouldn't want to, but I think that anybody who builds spiral wrapped rods that will try this method and set it up exactly as I outlined it in the magazine will probably switch over to this method almost exclusively.

I used Ralph O'Quinn's method for a few years and really felt it was the best. But once I tried what I call the Bumper spiral system I knew it worked just as well and wasn't nearly as time consuming to set up. Sometimes it's just possible to try too hard and do too much when the most simple solution is right there staring you in the face.

I think the term 'transition guide' is just a habbit that most of us have formed. In the setup mentioned here there are no real transition guides. The line is what transitions from the top to the bottom. There happens to be a guide placed during that transition and most of us refer to that guide as a 'transition guide'. This is much like the way I have done spirals in the past. Run the line from the butt guide to the first 180 placing two smaller guides inbetween without altering the line path. I always called those two guides 'transition' guides even though they only contained the line instead of changing it's direction. It's a habit that I formed (that I possibly might have to change!). I can see where the term can be confusing.

The method mentioned in this thread reduces the two guides down to one guide placed on the 90 degree plane. That is, after all, a 50% weight reduction of sorts.

Bumper guide...I've got to practice saying that.

Jay

William,
You may be right. I guess I should first set up a rod with your recommended guide set up and try it. But as far as stepping down the guides is concerned I think that the size of the first guide and then subsequent guides is concerned, it depends a lot on the reel that you are using and also the stiffness of the line. With a lot of the modern reels the reel's line guide does not move when casting and in that case I would suspect that you are correct about the size of the guides. However, with reels where the line guide does move back and forth there can be a great deal, several inches, of lateral motion, motion at 90 degrees to the rod. In this case the first guide does not completely tame the line and I am not so sure that I agree with you.
It is easy to tell what sort of job the first and second guide are doing by doing just what Richard did and that is to cast the rod and watch the standing wave in the line, first between the reel and the first guide and then between the first guide and the second guide and then on down the rod. My experience has been that the amplitude of the standing wave will drop dramatically after the first guide but there will still be some standing wave after the first guide.

Bill, All I've heard about the "bumper" is that it be low framed. Double foot is mentioned in this string. If the "bumper" gets no real pressure, is there any reason that, say a ceramic # 6 or 8 fly guide can't be used for the bumper? I usually use all single foot fly #6 or 8's for the "downside guides anyway

Mike

As I said above, it doesn't matter. Too much effort on something that makes no practical difference. Don't watch for the standing wave or worry about amplitude. Just build it and cast and fish it. Keep that bumper guide small. #8 is usually the best although a 10 seems to work without harming anything.

I think you could. The only reason I use the doubles is that from a standpoint of abuse it's usually the first guide or two or three that take the brunt of beating and banging. And since the little extra weight involved is back nearer the handle I don't think it really hurts. But either way the line is only concerned with the ring, it does not care or even know how many legs or feet are supporting that ring.