Hi all

Working on a new project. Friend wants to fish hard in the channels and cast far. Interested in a 10' Rainshadow 1208 which can toss 2-5 oz's. The tip is 9. He'll also be winding braid on the reel so SIC is important. Was wondering what folks would recommend for guides - number, size etc.

Right now I am thinking the Fuji MSNG (rather than the the std NSG). Was think SVSG or Surf guide would be too high if using a conventional reel. Since I have never build a surf rod for anyone using a conventional casting reel on it -- I am not sure if the same rules apply. In a traditional surf setup with a spinning reel I would generally use 5-6 guides including the tip - using a smaller stripper guide than I would if setting up for a spin.

I was thinking
25
20
20
16
16 (Tip)

Any reason to go smaller on the tip? I couldn't find a 12/9 -- the next smallest is a 10/9.

Thoughts - recommendations?

Thanks
Mark

PS -- also opinions on butt setup would be helpful -- would it be the same process as setting up a traditional surf with a spinning reel? I am assuming it is but please advise.

For casting - I usually use 6 guides plus top on an uncut BGSW-1508-2, but for a ten foot blank the five guides as you mentioned would work. The addtional 20 as you listed is good too. You're on the right track. I would match the top to the adjacent guide, keep it a 16.

Ie., 25, 20, 16, 16, 16, 16 top.

Due to customer requests the smallest size 16 guide allows the angler to reel in the shock leader even if the shock knot is fouled with grass, for cleaning right at the reel. Great when angler is up to his waist in water. Some customers even want a larger stripper guide, a 30, then guide sizes would be 30, 25, 20, 16, 16 top. For longer rods I add an additonal 16.

Though I think a 30 is a little large, the customer is always right - I use the guide sizes, colors, and any other specifications they provide. At present I am building a 11'6" rod with only 5 guides - too few, but the customer is sold on the idea that fewer guides equals less drag, can't change his mind - so he's right and I am building it like he wants......

I am not at my bench right now. Will send you an email in a few hours with some measurements from previous builds. Most probably they will closely compare to the spinning measurements you have.

Tight wraps,

Lou

Sent you email....

Lou

The 16 may be as small as you can go. You'll have to try it and see. If you're building this up as a casting rod (not sure from your post) I'd drop down as quickly as I could to whatever ends up being your smallest possible guide. So instead of 25 • 20 • 20 • 16 • 16 I would probably go from the 25 to a 20 and then straight to as many 16's as I needed.

If you're not going to do this in a spiral wrap fashion, I might be tempted to use an SVSG for the 25 and then move to NSG's for the remainder of the guides. If you do that, you may find that you can get away with a #20 for the butt guide instead of the 25.

...............

As far as the guides' ring material is concerned: With respect to the use of super braid line, even the Hardloy aluminum oxide ceramic guides' rings are well able to withstand the abrasion from the line itself and from the sand particles (mostly silicon dioxide) that imbed in the braid. Some hardness comparisons:

MOHR HARDNESS SCALE (sometimes spelled "Moh's"):

Zircon, cubic - 7.5
Aluminum Oxide - 8.0
Silicon Carbide - 9.0

Silica Sand - 5.0
Window Glass - 5.5
Mineral Sand - 5.0-7.0
Steel Knives - 6.5-7.0 maximum
Steel Files - 6.5-7.0 maximum

MOHR's is a relative scale, with arbitrary gradations.
In terms of absolute hardness:
# 7 - 100 Quartz
# 8 - 200 Topaz
# 9 - 400 Corundum
#10 - 1600 Diamond


VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE: (courtesy of Bob Crook & Spencer Phipps) [www.batsonenterprises.com]

Stainless Steel (SS): 200
Chrome: 800-1000
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
Alconite: 1700
Zirconia: 1800-2000
SiC: 2200- 2400


And some quotes from some voices of experience at RBO:

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Tom Kirkman 01-24-05 05:11PM
No quality ceramic guide will be harmed by the use of "super lines." Sometime for kicks, and if you have a file to destroy, try filing a groove into an Alconite or even a Hardloy ring. Do be advised, however, that you will permanently ruin your file, regardless of it's quality and Rockwell hardness.

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Lou Reyna 01-24-05 05:26PM
I have a rod with hardloy guides in my shop right now that has seen extensive use of "superlines" with no ill effects. The owner switched from mono to braided line on this rod some years ago. He's had fish on that pull a significant amount of line off the reel while the rod is under load. The guides have not grooved. The rod's in the shop to have a guide replaced that was cracked when the rod / reel combo was dropped on the asphalt. Lou

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Mike Barkley 01-24-05 05:42PM
In my area (Lake Erie) the majority of (including charters) trollers use braided / superlines. They also use mostly below $50 rods and I get more than my share of guide replacements (abuse, stepped on, etc.) I'm 65 and I can honestly say that I have never seen a grooved ring. One friend of mine, a charter captain is booked over a 150 trips a year and trolls for walleye and steelhead (steelies will run strong and long), uses cheap rods with cheap guides and Fireline on all of them. I do all of his rod work. Have never seen a grooved guide. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've yet to see it. Mike.

-Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-

In regards to super braids, the first generation lines would cause damage but the braids that have come out in the last few years are formulated differently, are slicker and will not damage any rings.

Tom -- Sorry if not clear -- casting rod is what I am building - no spiral. Not quite clear to me what you are recommending in the second part of your response. Would the setup you are recommending look like the following?

#20 SVSG
#20 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 TIP

or

#20 SVSG
#16 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 NSG
#16 TIP

Why the NSG -- wouldn't these sit too low to the blank even for a casting rod?

Thanks, Mark

Got the info I needed. Thank you everyone! You have all been a great help!

Mark