I just tried my first wraps without CP. I reall really like the translucent effect. I stripped the wraps and guides off the first rod I built (they were functional but not pretty) and put on garnet wraps without CP. Turned out really nice.

Just curious do most of you more experienced builders use CP or not? I suppose some builders would use both depending on what effect or color you are wanting. But most of you probably have a "preference".

PS: that is a lot of work to remove wraps and epoxy!

Thanks,
Greg

I use CP on every wrap I make, with the exception of those done in solid black thread. There is no real difference in wrap strength so it comes down to a question of cosmetics.

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I prefer CP. I personally think wraps without CP are pretty and have a nice effect, but they aren't my cup of tea. I like the wraps to stand out and be noticed. I haven't done non-CP wraps enough that I can predict the color outcome.

Did a fly rod for myself without CP and am not happy. It just looks dull to me. The few times I don't use CP are with something like garnet over metallic gold underwraps when I'm going for a "candy apple" effect.

I wrap the way I dress... usually loud. If I could do guide wraps in a hawaiin shirt style, I would! lol

i like my reds and garnets to go transparent. golds with cp. in the bamboo medium the trend is to clear wraps. they want the guide feet to show and you can see the grain of the bamboo. i like this effect. the key is not to build for anyone elses taste (unless its a customer). build to please yourself.

Good points everyone.
Mick - I guess I'm the opposite of you. I like quiet understated things. My wife would probably even say I'm a little "drab". LOL.
Anyway I'm glad I discovered this effect and will probably use it most of the time from now on. To each his own.

Greg

This thread always opens a can of worms from the "pro" and "con" crowd - those that love and those that don't.. I am not knocking anyone who does use the stuff, but on my rod bench you will never see a bottle of the stuff.

Read previous posts regarding problems with color preserver. Yes, there are many that use it with good results, but there are many pitfalls in using the stuff that will cause you problems. I experienced some of these pitfalls. The main reasons I do not use it are that it is hygroscopic (absorbs moisture), and it's lack of bonding strength when compared to straight finish. Rods I built in the past, that I used cp on, exhibited a tendency for more guide foot cracking than rods with straight finish. Once cracking set in moisture got under the layer of finish and soaked into the cp - discoloration and corrosion set in. Finsh does also crack but will not absorb moisture, so problems such as this are not as common.

Color preserver is not a bonding agent, it is a sealant, and using it prevents maximum penetration of finish which has greater strength than color preserver. You cannot use cp alone without top coating it with finish, yet you can use finish by itself - this should tell you something about its properties.

You can design a wide variety of color combinations without having to use color preserver, so I selected thread colors for use without cp, and use the translucent properties of nylon with good results. Some nylons are not translucent at all with cp.

So, long ago I asked myself that if I can use certain threads without cp with good results, and I can eliminate the hygroscopic action around guide wraps, and use finish only on guide wraps for maximum guide wrap strength (esp in heavy saltwater rods) then why use cp at all? Stopped using it and never went back. As a bonus I have not seen sparkling green-tinted BLACK wraps since I stopped using the stuff.

I have to admit that I do have a small bottle of stuff on the bench, but I use it only for repair of rods that have had cp used on them.

Lou

Greg: Be aware, a downside of no CP is that the tag ends of trim wraps will show through the translucent threads. You can place them so that they are on the bottom of the rod, but I personally get around this by making stand-alone trim wraps.

Not really any pitfalls or problems with color preserver itself, but with some that use it. Operator error is the cause of 99% of CP problems.

If the product itself was bad or had shortcomings, then everyone who used it would have problems with it. Most don't. In fact, the only reason it seems so prevelent is because you only hear from those who do have problems with it. Most aren't going to mention it unless they have a problem, so the hundreds of thousands of bottles of CP that are sold and used properly and without problems don't get reported. Just the small percentage that do have problems mention it, which creates the illusion that it's troublesome. It's not.





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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2005 02:45PM by Tom Kirkman.

I agree with Lou on everything; can add that besides matching repair work, the only other thing that I use this for is inlaying feathers. I use threads that don't need CP, like Lou does, on all new rods that I build. I just firmly believe that using it makes an inferior guide wrap coating and as a custom builder, I sure don't want problems with my work. The rod finish alone, without CP, is a much, much better thread protector package than CP with finish. It's somewhat stronger, too, by tests done-but that isn't my concern-it's the protection factor that causes me to stay away from it.

Putter

Wraps made without CP are approximately 11% stronger, but wraps made with CP are more than strong enough. You will twist the guide off before you'll tear the wraps. As I said, if there were inherent problems with CP, then no one would use it and the product would have fallen by the wayside long ago due to poor sales.

I'm not advocating that everyone must use it, just that the vast majority who do use it have no problems, have strong and long lasting wraps. It's a cosmetic choice more than anything else.

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I always use CP unless matching existing wraps, or because of a request. I use water based Flex Coat which is so easy to use - thoroughly saturate the threads and leave to dry overnight. I've only ever had one small discolouration problem on one wrap due to operator error (mine), so it is bomb proof! Another big advantage of CP (Flex Coat anyway) that hardly ever gets a mention is that it makes rebinding rods much easier - the thread tends not to adhere to the blank surface quite so much, so you can preserve the original blank colour/finish better when removing the thread. I know most builders want their rods to last forever, but wear and accidents do happen necessitating a rebuild at some stage! That is a huge bonus to me because I do heaps of repairs/rebinds for a shop and some of the non-CP rebinds can be brutes, especially some of finishes coming out of factories these days. Jim

I always use CP unless matching a on repair(even with metallic butt wraps to hold them in place). People say that guides without are stronger but I have yet to EVER hear of ANYONE having a guide wrap fail in a non-abuse situation. I'm not saying that it's never happened, I'm just saying that I have never seen it nor have I even seen a post stating that it happened.

Like Tom said, you can literally twist a guide until it breaks without breaking the wrap. I'm not advocating that everyone use it, but I'd really like to see people quit telling others not to use it. Especially new builders. Let them get both sides of the debate and decide for themselves. I'm not referring to posters in this thread, I just hate to see posts that tell people that the HAVE to do something a certain way!!!!

Mike

Not taking sides on the durability of guide wraps with or without CP, but I'm in the no CP camp. On fly rods I like a deeper, more muted thread appearance and have found several thread colors, that when epoxy coated, provide a pleasing appearance. I usually work in some metallic accents. The true colors of my wraps come out when in sunlight.

Jeff Shafer

Sorry Tom. I think I opened a bit of a "can of worms" with this subject.

Good comments all around though especially informative for a novice like myself.
I have had a bit of trouble with CP (some uneven colors) - but I'm sure it was due to operator error like you stated.
Greg

Greg,
Operator error can creep into many rod building steps, we all experience it. So when embarking on guide coating, inscriptions, decal application, feather inlays, etc, it is always a good idea to practice on extra blank sections. IMHO...

Good luck,
Jeff Shafer

No can of worms, don't worry about it. You'll just have to decide what look you prefer and go that route.

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I hear that, Mike, on people telling others, especially the newer builders, that it has to be this way or that way. We all figure it out sooner or later on what works best for us and I try to tell my experiences from that angle. I don't want anyone to think that I'm anti-CP or anything else (tongue oil vs. true oil, etc). Just have to explain why I feel the way that I do and let them decide.

I've yet to see a guide wrap failure due to CP use, but I've seen discolorations and moisture problems on my old wraps that ceased when I quit using it.

Putter

I use CP and I don't. As mentioned many times, depends on the look I'm trying to achieve. I will say that there have been times when I've used CP that I have later had wrap problems. These cases can almost all be traced to water getting to the CP and as Lou points out, playing havoc because it is not waterproof. Some are the result of operator errors - me not being totally dilligent in applying the the finish. Others, have occurred on hard-used (but, not necessarily abused) rods that have developed finish cracks. Both, resulted ultimately because water will always, always find its way to places it should not be, just to do its damage thing. I think Mr Murphy is aquatic. Currently, I grin and repair. What I hope happens is some of the comments in another thread come to be - we find a totally waterproof CP already out there or someone formulates one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2005 06:10PM by Steve Rushing.

Been building rods a long time and have used flex coat CP on every wrap I've ever done. No blemishes or trouble with moisture getting into the wraps. No failures. Guess I don't understand why people have problems with. I've never had a guide loosen or need repair unless somebody steps on it or it rusts out. Only complaint on the flext coat type is that you lose a color shade with light thread on dark blanks. May switch to gudebrod 811.

I really liked Lou's statement -
"You cannot use cp alone without top coating it with finish, yet you can use finish by itself - this should tell you something about its properties" -

I must be in the percentile that has problems with it since I don't really like it. But I do use it to hold my metalic trim bands in place until I cut the tags and apply finish.