Putter, Can you tell me why you think CP on a wrap is inferior? I don't follow the line that CP causes the wraps to be weaker. I think CP accomplishes the same thing finish does to the wrap. It provides a seal and it locks the wraps together. That the finish helps to lock the guide down is just an added benefit. CP is another tool the rod builder has at his or her disposal. I would only ask that those who have had a bad experience or two with CP think about how many times you have had to redo a wrap (or two or three) because the finish didn't cure just right, or you applied too much past the wraps, or one guide has a thicker finish than the other. My point is, that it takes time, practice, and focus to make CP come out right. Just like any other part of the process that didn't go right, you will occasionally have to redo a wrap here and there. For the record, I have had to redo wraps because of imperfections of the finish application. I have never had to redo a wrap because of applying color preserver. I also only use Flex-Coat and can't speak of the quality of other CP products.
I remember an on-line writer posting an article just a few years ago. The article was about testing different CP's and the author said he had applied CP on a couple rods, and fished them over one or two seasons without finish.

Patrick Vernacchio

PS I'm not saying any builder is wrong or right in whether or not to use color preserver. It's a matter of choice in most cases. I do only recommend that you give a try, even on scrap blanks to perform a comparison, and that builder's who propagate the belief that color preserver weakens the wrap, provide reasonable proof. I use my rods every season to fight and land 15 - 55 pound salmon on rods built with color preserver. None of the wraps have failed me yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2005 09:16PM by Patrick Vernacchio.

I've used CP by itself on some quicky made rods used to test certain things. Over the years we just kept on using them and never applied finish of any type on them. They still work fine. I wouldn't advise this for the norm of course, as you don't really have a hard top layer of protection against abrasion, but the CP will lock everything down to the point that it can withstand being used.

................

Hi, Patrick

First of all, CP is not moisture impervious. Water can and will work it's way through it because of the properties of CP in use to date.

I used to use CP all the time (for over 10 years), but I quit using it on guide wraps over 12, 13 years ago. If you read Jim Morris' post on this same thread, that is what I found to be the problem with using CP and why I had all of the "come back" problems that I solved by no longer using CP.

After unwrapping the guide wraps of CP coated and non-CP coated of my own wrapping / finishing, I found that exact problem that Jim states as why he likes CP use. On the CP coated wraps, the thread came off easily when I had to re-wrap. The finish can't go in between the threads of the guide wrap when CP is applied. You count on the very end of the rod finish on each and every CP'ed guide wrap to completely seal the threads from moisture entering the guide wrap.

When I stopped using CP, I found that the finish goes in between each and every thread, down to the blank and sealing all along the wrap as long as the tunnel is filled. So if the finish cracks right by the guide ring or the foot, only a thread or two is bothered by it.

I just don't have problems on my own rods and customers rods anymore. Because of good, honest customers bringing back their rods, I discovered this. I just wonder how many of them were unhappy and didn't bring them back or say anything to me??? I'll bet I never built another rod for them, though.

It's personal preference, and whenever the thread comes up from someone new, I feel I should let them know of this problem with use of CP.

I still need to make sure that I'm applying fresh finish to my guide wraps to ensure that the encapulation of the threads is happening as I apply finish. I often times mix up 3 batches of finish to do a 6' rod, 2 for the guides and one for the butt wrap.

As far as the guide wraps being weaker with CP, that's a given (I believe Tom's test showed them to be 11% weaker); but again, it doesn't concern me one bit as it's very obvious that guide wraps with CP are plenty strong enough to tackle anything thrown at them. It's just a mention and I always state with it that it's insignificant to me.

Thanks for asking me why I no longer use it, Patrick. I hope this explains why I feel the way that I do. I've just learned to use different threads and work around needing it. I've got a lot of thread in a zip lock bag from those past years in my rod room that mostly gets used on repairs and marbled guide wraps, now.

I stopped useing CP even on my but wraps. On wraps I finish them, then just put finish on. Got to baby site to make sure the threads do not move from tension. Or a quick coat of permagloss to hold in place, then clear

On double or tripple wraped guides, use permagloss on each wrap, stronger and water proof and a better bond. Then clear



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2005 10:23PM by bill boettcher.

I'm a fan of Bill's method. Perma gloss and then epoxy. I frankly like the translucent effect the best.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Thanks for responding Putter.
I enjoy the debate, every time it comes up, so I hope you are not taking my questions as personal. If I offended, I apologize. That is not my intent. I look at CP not as the protectant or sealer.

I do have trouble wrapping my mind around the moisture problem, though. I'm doing the math here: The guide gets wrapped with thread. The thread gets treated with color preserver, then the finish covers the color preserver and the thread. How could the color preserver attract the moisture if the finish is covering the wrap? If the whole process is performed correctly, which we can assume, then how else would moisture get to the wrap? Better yet, why would the color preserver be responsible if it is under the finish?

I use Flex-Coat CP to preserve color, nothing more. I rely on the quality of my wrap to maintain a bond between rod and guide. I use the finish to seal the wrap from moisture. If the wraps are correctly applied, that guide ain't moving without help. If I apply my finish, which my goal is to cover the wrap with no overlap on the blank, then I am confident the wrap ain't coming loose. Drill bits and our favorite kitchen knives have to be rehoned, our cars have to serviced after so many miles; our reels have to taken in, cleaned, and re-lubed every season, and we have to trade our spouses in for newer ones every 15 years (uhm, strike that last statement, wishful thinking).... The point is, nothing lasts forever, especially on our go to rods. So if you or I have to wrap a rod every 10 years, I'd say we did a pretty good job. It's like any other tool.

I don't think this subject is so touchy, that we can't have a disagreement. On the contrary, we definitely have two schools of thought. And both are correct. I have this debate with my best friend, and neither of us are budging towards the other side.

BTW, The last rod I built, and haven't quite finished because I broke the tip and awaiting a replacement from Dan Craft, is wrapped with gunmetal grey thread, no CP, and it went dark on me. It looks good against the guides and blank, but I'm not always going after a darker or a translucent effect.

Patrick Vernacchio

I reread my first response (February 6, 2005 06:13PM), and realized why some of you would warn against strictly using color preserver. I alway cover my thread with a finish, regardless of whether I apply color preserver or "go naked" and just use finish to seal the thread.

Sorry if that caused any confusion.

Patrick Vernacchio

Heck, no, Patrick, you sure didn't offend me or anyone else unless they have really thin skin!! LOL. You stated things correctly and without anything that would make anyone angry or something like that. I was actually glad to finally post my complete thoughts on this. On previous posts about this subject, all or part of what I'd run into had been said by others and I was finally able to put my whole story into one post.

In a nutshell, I had problems with guide wraps with cracked finish (some very small and not hardly noticeable) and the guide wraps going goofy on the color. I solved it by stopping the use of CP. I now find my guide wraps are harder to get off the blank when re-wrapping guides (which makes me feel a lot more secure); but now I'm only re-wrapping them because they're broken by misuse or accidents.

For me, it would be real hard to ever go back to using these same products. Some of those rods of mine were over 6, 7 years old that this happened to. One customer's was end of the first season, though.

I look forward to the day that there's a product on the market that will allow us to color preserve threads and finish them in one coat. Now that would be something, and I think it's a definite possibility!

Well said Randy Parpart (Putter).

I used to use cp extensively when I first began building, but because of problems I experienced I stopped using it. It was not a problem with applicaiton technique, it was a problem with the material itself that caused me to stop using it.

Lou

Putter, I understand your point. It's an enjoyable topic to debate every other month or so.

Patrick Vernacchio

Lou,

If the product was problematic, then we'd all have problems with it. We don't. In fact, most don't. In nearly every case where a builder has been able to bring me a rod and show me, in person, I've been able to uncover the problem and in nearly all cases it was operator error.

Some like CP and some don't. But it isn't fair to fair to label a product as being inherently problematic when such is just not the case. The worst thing any of us can do is convince a new builder that he is guaranteed to have problems with something when there is a very good chance that he won't.

If color preserver caused inherent problems, then it would not be on the market. Demand would be zero and the companies that make it would not be able to sell it.

Someone suggested that Patrick try some practice wraps and see for himself whether he likes it or not. That's sound advice.

.............

Tom, Thanks for the compliment...That was me who recommended a comparison test.
This is one on those issues (like wrapping pink thread on any blank), where most opinions are on either side of the bell curve and there ain't hardly any in the middle of the road.

Patrick Vernacchio



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2005 09:21AM by Patrick Vernacchio.

I feel exactly the opposite of Tom. I think that anyone who uses it, because of it's inconsistancy, will at times have problems with it.
I seriously doubt that there is a single person who uses CP that can honestly say that they have never had any problems with it.
As far as the reason that it is still on the market is concerned. I think that it is still on the market because it does what it is supposed to do which is to preserve the color. It is not still on the market because it isn't a pain in the back side.

Another comment that I would like to make about the use of a rod that was wrapped and only CP used on the wraps. I think that argument as the Tappet Brothers on NPR would say "is booooogus". If the rod is wrapped and nothing is applied to the wraps, no CP or epoxy, the same results would be achieved. For those who feel that the CP is almost as strong as epoxy I would ask then why not use CP instead of epoxy to attach reel seats and cork?

I've never had a problem with it and i"ve used it on literally thousands of rods. Most of the local builders I know who use it, have never had a problem with it.

I don't think anyone has said that CP is as strong as epoxy. What has been said, is that wraps made with CP and epoxy versus those made with only epoxy are within 11% in terms of overall "strength." Big difference in those two statements.

I believe Patrick's advice remains the most sound - make some test wraps and try it for yourself. The only thing I would add, is that if you do have a problem with it, try to ascertain if it's the product or perhaps had something to do with your thread wrapping, thinning, solvent, etc. The article that Ralph did for us on color preserver uncovered a host of problems that are caused by improper thinning, types of solvents, etc.

.................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2005 10:41AM by Tom Kirkman.

Like Emory my results were always hit or miss. But something nobody here brought up is the water you use to thin the stuff with. After Ralph's article I stopped using cold kitchen tap water and started using room temp distilled water and I haven't had a problem since.

I think the only problem is that the manufacturers don't put good instructions on the sides of the bottle. Had I known that you should never use tap water to thin it with I would never have had any problems.

Tom,
That is odd because everyone I know has at times had problems with it. Maybe you guys on the East Coast are just smarter than we rubes on the West Coast. I know that I quit using it years ago because of inconsistant results and you would have to really wail on me with a big stick to get me to use it again except in the occasional rare case when I want to maintain the color.

I use it on most evey rod I build, and can say, I've never had a problem using it. I use Flex Coat CP and one, do not thin it. I apply it with a artists brush and really load it up. Two, I then clean the brush and try to remove as much as I can, while continuing to clean the brush on each pass untill the entire wrap is completely saturated and shiny. Let it dry then apply the finish.

As far as the finish cracking after use, I've found that has happend only when I've not done a good enough job of preping the guide feet. On those guides, I've been able to remove, prep, cp, and refinish with no furthur problems.

IMMHOP.

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

Finish a piece of scrap blank with straight finish. Do another with cp only and no finish. Place both in a glass of water for a few hours. You'll be able to see the difference.

Lou