Only disadvantage I can see for me is if a dang pelican grabbed my bait and took off straight up with it!! (OK, Beerman, maybe not in January in North Dakota, but they're here all of the open water months!!).

Spirals have so much advantage, even the slightest perceived disadvantage is quickly overshadowed.

Putter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2005 12:51AM by Randy Parpart (Putter).

Pelicans???? In N. Dakota???



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

A distance difference that amounts to perhaps a couple inches on a 100 foot cast is not any real disadvantage. If it cut my distance by even 5%, however, I certainly could concede a disadvantage. But that kind of casting distance difference doesn't exist between the two.

I also can't find where the line on a guides-on-top rod travels in a straight line to the rod tip. On my rods, the spiral rods shoot the line on a straighter path to the tip. Perhaps that's why I can't find any casting distance difference. On most guides-on-top rods, the line has to make a pretty definite course correction when it hits the butt guide and then has to lift and continue on along the rod tip. The only way to avoid this would be with the use of very, very high butt guides. Higher than most of what is even available to us. On good spiral wrapped rods, the line travels more straightly by being taken to the underside on the same path from which it leaves the reel. And, the line need only skirt to one side of the rod by perhaps 1/4 to 1/2 inch, something which mono and braid both accept very well without any noticeable loss in casting distance.

For those who are reading this please keep in mind that all the arguments are correct in some fashion - it's just that some are talking in very technical terms while others are staying more within the realm of actual on the water fishing situations. The latter is the one I tend to involve myself with.

...........

HEre's a list of NEgative's from that link, since there is way too much to read (keep in mind this is not my list, I added my negative at teh bottom):

Negatives

1. The largest "negative" I have found is a tendency for WET BRAIDED LINE to tangle with the guides. Although not a major a problem, it does occur with enough frequency that I mention it.
I only notice this occurring with WET braid, and not mono.
I also noticed that I cannot easily "shake out" this tangle, and usually must put the rod down and do it by hand.
I would suggest this is the largest "negative" I have found with spiral wrapped rods. It does have the potential to cause line failure or catastrophic rod failure, if the operator is not observant enough.

2. From my experience, the spiral wrap rod has a tendency to get damaged more often than conventional rods.
I am not talking about damage during use, but when in a rod holder, or during transportation, or even in accidents.
Proportionally my spiral rods have received far more damage to the guides than my conventional rods.
All of this damage occurred during standby or transportation mode, NOT while fishing.

3. They are a ***** to pack for travel. Not a negative in my mind, but more of an inconvience to deal with. Try packing 6 spiral rods for travel, I find Rubic's Cube easier to solve

I'll add one negative of my own - When you catch a fish and lean teh rod on teh rail or gunnel, the rod slides and is hard to stay put. With stright guides a guide will rest on teh rail and prevent it from sliding around & sometimes falling. I agree with teh above negative that they are a pain to pack into a car, as well as into a Bazooka.

I was a hard sell on the spiral wrap until I finally got tired of fighting my rod on party boats and piers. Everytime you have a fish run down on you and then you have to raise the rod over the head and lift it over and past all the other fishermen. It's a pain with the rod trying to flip and spin on you. Most of use that have done this just flip the reel upside down and leave it that way until we clear the other guys and can start fighting the fish again.

So my last bottom rod was spiral wrapped and what I found was that when I have to move down the rail past other guys the rod just stays upright no matter how hard the fish pulls. I don't get that odd side to side wobble any more when I fight a fish and everything just seems to work smoother. I don't think I'll ever build another rod with the guides along the top side no matter how many stupid comments the other guys want to make. In fact if I was betting man I'll say that a lot of the wiseguys end up switching over to spiral wrapped rods after they try mine just once. There is no comparison.

Tom,
Are you trying to say that the combination of the diameter of the blank plus the width of your reel is 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Because those are what will determine the size of the arc that the line will have to follow is.
Also I do not think that the difference is as small as a couple of inches in a 100 foot cast. But even if it were that small that is a disadvantage. You say that is not a REAL disadvantage. Now we are arguing semantics aren't we.
The problem I have with spiral wrapped rods is not really with spiral wrapped rods at all. I recognize that in some applications they have advantages but I also realize that they have some disadvantages in other applications. The real problem I have is that I think that they are being over sold by some of their advocates. Advocates who will shout out their advantages but will not concede that they have any disadvantage, even a small one.

Sorry, that should be radius of the blank not the diameter.

My tests with a casting machine prove to me that there is no practical difference in casting distance. At least not enough to be easily measureable outside of a vacuum, perhaps. I've not seen any overselling of spiral wrapped rods, in fact, I think the advantages are undersold, by quite a bit.

You cannot obtain a straight line path on a guides-on-top rod. Even with a very low profile bass levelwind reel, you will have a sudden change at the butt guide. Not to mention that the act of the line moving back and forth across the spool width precludes any such outfit from maintaining a straight line path. On good spiral wrapped rods, the line path is straighter. The width of the blank is the only thing the line has to pass around and it only takes a very slight 1/4 to 1/2 inch deflection to do that. This isn't enough to reduce distance when we're working with something as flexible as fishing line.

Billy's comments on lying an outfit against a rail or gunnel and having the reel flip (as they do) and then not having any guides to "catch" the rod and keep it from falling over would be, in my opinion, a practical disadvantage. Then you'd have to weigh the advantages in fish fighting stability against being able to set your rod on the rail and walk away from it. Or you could take a pocketknife and cut a V notch in the rail, although the captain might not approve.

...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2005 09:19AM by Tom Kirkman.

You may want to string up a guides on top rod and take a hard look at the line path. In order to get a straight path through the guides with your line, even a low profile bass reel would require a butt guide of at least 1-1/2 inches in height and then the rest of the guides would have to be very high as well. Larger guides = more weight = less casting distance.

Good spiral wrapped rods provide a line path that is straighter overall. Not perfectly straight, but straighter than most guides on top rods. They may well have an edge in casting distance, although as I said earlier, it's really too small to measure.

............

Emory - I don't think it's trying to be oversold, I think people who have used them like them so muc they want to let everyone know. For all the detractors of spiral, there are VERY few guys who can come up with a list of disadvantages. I tried to help you out on this one, I listed a personal disadvantage I've had with them, and listed them from someone else. From my end, I'm not just sittign here agreeing with what I read on a computer screen - I take what I read, try it, and see what I can com eup with. I'd LOVE to hear of more actual disadvantages, that will give me something to try and "fix".

Personaly, here is where I would not use a spiral wrapped rod, & why. A distance cating surf rod - if I was in a DC contest, I would think "IF" I wanted teh furthest casting set up I THINK a straight set up would be the way to go. I don't know for a fac, I would have to try both and see for myself, I honestly beleive you can set them up to just just as far if you knwo what you are doing and spend time tinkering wiith the set up.

Offshore with Acid Rollers. I never did this fishing, but imo a rod which will be used with a Harness &/or Gimbal has teh torque you feel removed. Will the tip twist - I dunno, I've never done this fishing & if I did it wouldn't be on an experiment basis.

If anyone can tell where they wouldn't use one, and why, I'd love to hear it.

Steve - just print this out & distribute it for yor members, lol. Sell them on this - not only will the rod catch you more fish, it will provide hours of entertainment & conversation with you're fishing buddies, lol.

Tom,
Both the frictional loses and the loses in momentum are going to be parcially a function of the size of the arc from the reel to the tip. The arc will be larger than you suggest. The worst case is when the transition guides are on one side of the rod and the line is coming off of the opposite side of the reel, say the transition guides are on the left hand side of the rod and the line is coming off of the right hand side of the reels spool. If the reel's spool is for example 2 inches wide then the arc is going to be more on the order of 1 1/2 inches. I completely agree with you that a conventionally wrapped rod has the same problem with the line changing direction at the first guide. However, the affect will be smaller unless the line is coming off of the reel on the conventionally wrapped rod over 1 1/2 inches above the top of the first guide. I might set up the guides on a boat rod like that but not any rod that was going to be used for casting.
Your estimate of the loss being a couple of inches on a 100 foot cast is not plausible to me. That would be a loss of less than 0.2%.

Tom,
I just finished setting a rod up with spiral wrapped guides and with conventionally wrapped guides and then mounted a reel on them. I set the spiral wrapped rod up to mimumize the the size of the arc created by the path of the line from the reel to the tip of the rod. After setting them up and mounting the reel on them I measured everything, width of spool, radius of the blank in the area where the line makes it's transition around the rod, the high of the top of the guide, the height of the line coming off of the reel, all of the measurements that affect the size of the arc that the line must go through. I also ran line through both sets of guides and measured the size of the arc on each. I FOUND THAT THE DIFFERENCE IN THE SIZE OF THE ARC, USING THE GUIDES AND REEL THAT I USED, WAS INSIGNIFICANT, it was less than 1/4 inch in favor of the conventionally wrapped rod. However, this is less than the variations that will result from the type of guides used, size of the reel, how much line is on the reel etc. I MUST CONCEDE THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND I HAVE BEEN WRONG. YOU HAVE MY APOLOGY. I SHOULD HAVE TRYED THIS SOME TIME AGO.

Billy, when using heavy offshore gear the tip will twist. This is compounded when the butt is locked into a gimbal...the tip then is the only outlet for the torquing of the rod. I have been thrown off balance, to the point of falling down, when fighting on stand-up gear. Granted this is extreme fishing with stand-up gear and 40-65# of drag, but those are the conditions I deal with at times. Combine 45# of drag, stand-up gear, a rolling sea, and a small boat THEN throw in a rod tip that fall over to one side and it makes for a dangerous situation. On small rods you only 'see' the tip roll, but when a tip rolls on a heavy & stiff blank with mucho drag on the reel believe me when I say the angler tips to the same side of the rod torque. Ain't fun, but it is the nature of the beast.

Jay

Jay, I've only done 3 Tuna trips, so I'mnot one to say. I don't doubt waht you say at all, and I don't think any one person's opinion/feelings are right for everyone.

[www.noreast.com]

Scroll down in that link - there are 2 pictures of Dennis Braid hooked up to 600# Giants on stand up gear.

The following link shows a simplified (though slightly flawed) diagram of the forces involved on a loaded fishing rod. This diagram is useful for comparing a rod that is conventionally wrapped with a rod that is spirally wrapped. It may be a helpful to refer to it when thinking about all these points of discussion and our (different) views on this subject. ... After all, we wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of any of our opinions, now would we? ... LOL, -Cliff Hall- Gainesville, Florida.
[www.allamericanrollerguides.com]
[http://www.allamericanrollerguides.com/spiralAdvantage.html]

Billy thanks for the link. I frequent the Noreast.com site also and happened to visit with Dennis Braid & Dick Mierowitz on their visit to NC for that very bluefin trip. As a matter of fact we went to lunch the day Dennis almost lost his eye because of Dicks spiral roller rod. I fish these same fish and use pretty much the same tackle and harnesses that Dennis does. Even using one of Dennis' PowerPlay 4'8" 130# stand up rods, the same he was fishing in those pictures, the tip will fall over to one side. It has happened to me time & time again.

I didn't want to make this thread turn into this particular conversation. Sorry for doing so. The original question was about the positives of a spiral wrap wasn't it? LOL

Jay

JAy - Steve is from Alabama, so he'll be all confused by this Acid Roller stuff, lol. Sorry Steve, low blow.

I wasn't ware you were the guy they ate lunch with. The internet makes this a small world. As I said, I don't have any opinion on that type of fishing is not my thing. I have no dobut what you say is true . I was trying to give naysayers some incentive to answer teh question on when they wouldn't use a spiral wrapped rod, yet nobody has an answer?

That may be because there really aren't many if any, practical disadvantages to the spiral wrap. Well, other than the odd looks and behind the back comments you get from others. As far as actual fishing use, it seems to be superior on all fronts.

..................

Ah Ha Ha! Comin' out with the ole Alabama jokes huh Billy?!
I know what an Acid roller is......it's one of those hippy freaks that found extacy!...LOL