I've had very good results for the most part, but there are small areas which have blotching on lighter threads on som eof my wraps. I know that others have had this same problem, adn I'd like to compile a list of who's had problems, EXACTLY what was the problem, what colors were used, what CP, etc.

I've had 2 wraps with Yellow come out looking like absolute crap. I've had small areas of blotching on others, but hardly noticeable unless I look back and forth in the sunlight. I'e cut 2 wraps off so far (both Yellow), and know that epoxy somehow soaked into the threads, and reached the blank. Which leads me to a CP problem o my part.

So, what I'm in teh process of doing is running a few tests trying different things and seeing what I com eup with, and hopefully I can nail down teh problem and get rid of this issue 100% once and for all. Here's what I've done so far, and my guesses as to what might be the cause.

Last week I applied Glass Coat & Brilliance II (which is concentrated Gudebrod 811S) cut with some Denatured - onto a Yellow wrap, half on one side, half the other. The GC soaked into the threads, and turned them all dark. I've used GCCP before, and never noticed this - I ddn't like it at all, especialy since after 4 or 5 hours in a drying box, it was dry, but the color of the threads was still dark. At teh same time, the other side the 811 did not soak in AT ALL, which kind of confused me a bit - the 811 hadn't been used in a while, and was quite thick, thick enough apparantly to not soak into teh threads at all. When I applied epoxy, it was a disater, and just got worse..way worse when I applied Heat. I thought the heat might have I guess boiled the CP and allowed the epoxy to mix with eth 811, and darkening the thread.

Tonight I did a Light Blue to dark Blue wrap, coated half the wrap with 811 one heavy coat, the other 2 heavy coats. I thinned the CP considerably, it was still thick, but flowed a lot better. I made sure to work it into the threads with a brush. When the second coat dried, it left some white dots - it looked like I wiped the wrap with a damp tisue paper - it was the CP which dried up on the surface. I applied one heavy coat of epoxy, hea tthe crap out of it, and both sides came out almost perfect. TEhre is some barely see through on the 1 cot side, and on teh 2 coat side a few of te hlarger dots are somewhat visible.

I think my issue might have been the thick CP not soaking into the threads at all. AS I do a few more test s over the next few weeks (including at least one more with Yellow, and one with Neon Orange - Hot Neon Pink - can't even look at it in teh sunlight it's so bright, lol) - and will post any further findings. I think each of us who have had these issues can fix them if we work together to figure it all out.

Billy'
I think that you may be chasing your tail. My experience has been that if you use dark colors of thread on a dark blank you will have a lot less problems. If you use lighter shades of thread and color preserver the threads must be very, very well packed and the first coat of color preserver must be a flooded coat that saturates the thread well. However, after screwing around for years with different types of color preserver the ultimate solution to all of my problems with it was to throw it all into the trash can.

Billy,
Have you tried the water based Flexcoat CP? If not why not give that a try? I did a faded Chevron using blue's on a matte black blank and used the Flexcoat CP watered down two coats and then one straight coat and had almost no bleed issues. But maybe we should all just make things easier and if we are going to be using light colors on dark blanks we should just paint the part of the blank that will be under the wrap? I know its an addition step but if it would solve the issue completely then it would be worth it.

Now I know why I like black nylon so much! HEHEHE



Russ

I've had my "blotching" problems, even with a few coats of 811, and I guess it just adds character! That watermelon wrap you saw(3 coats 811) had some minor blotching in the lighter shades that closed the wrap (in the areas under the lighter shades where there was exposed blank, not the areas where there was dark brown thread) I just now saturated it with flex coat cp (THINNED with water) and there was no additional blotching.

I'll slice the watermelon off the blank later today and show you the "skin " in a couple weeks at the Northeast Rodbuilders gathering. As our rodbuilding forefathers wrote many years ago, when using lighter shades of nylon better results can be acheived by "white"ing out the wrap area.

I'm sure painting the blank will solve this problem. lol - I'm also sure (and stubborn) that figuring out how thin the 811 should be will also solve it. I do not like the water based CP's as the color retention compared ot 811 is not the same.

Mike - when you do your white painting the blank test (notice I said WHEN, lol) - only do it for 1/2 the wrap. Pick teh same colors you did with teh Watermelon wrap, or something similar, and go nuts.

Something else I didn't think of before - you know how you fray & pop threads, maybe these are teh spots blotching because the thread is thinner from being frayed? Hmmmm.

Emory - isn't chasing your tail a good % of Rod building? If we all gave up on things that didn't work without attempting to figure out exactly what the problem is - we'd never get anywhere. My issue s defiantely NOT having the threads packed together tight enough, it's my application of CP.

WHEN?...after I get rid of 24" of snow and thaw out my fingers I'll get right on it. Good day for it.

The Gudebrod 811 is great stuff, but Gudebrod (actually the company that makes it for them) does a lousy job of batch consistency. Some are water thin while others are thick as molasses. This shouldn't be happening with fresh batches. Too thick and it just lays on top - which is fine until your epoxy finds a way underneath. Too thin and you don't really apply anything to your wraps other than solvent - which evaporates and leaves nothing behind to really seal the thread.

When I get a thick bottle of 811 I usually thin the whole bottle about 10% to 15% with alcohol. I do so much work with white thread on grey blanks that I'm well aware that you can't get away without absolutely perfect thread packing. No matter how good your CP is or how well you apply it, any areas that aren't well packed or consistent with the other threads are going to show dark splotches. It's a pain, but it's a fact of life.

I also think the Flex Coat acrylic type CP is easier to use, but it doesn't give quite as good color retention as the 811 or Glass Coat CP. It's also gotten a bad name primarily because it can sometimes cause whitish haze on very dark colored threads. But this is primarily a function of poor thinning procedure or the use of "hard water" in the thinning process.

The guy who will know more than anyone else on this subject will be in Charlotte for the National Rod Builders' Show. If you go, I'd spend some time picking Ralph O'Quinn's brain on the subject. Roger Seiders (Flex Coat) will also be there although he's a not a formulator. Still, he's seen it all and might have some answers for you as well.

On another note, I don't think enough work has been done by rod builders with the sealers used by artists, crafts-people and taxidermist. It may well be that a superior product for our purposes is already available, it's just not being marketing to the rod building craft. I've used Krylon 1311 on threads and it does a great job at preserving color, but the spray can is a hassle for use on guide wraps. But my point is that there are alternative products that might serve us better, but we just haven't played around with them enough yet.


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2005 09:43AM by Tom Kirkman.

Tom - If you have any specific suggestions to alternatives, I'd love to hear them & wouldn't mind conducting my own field testing. If not, I'll do some research and see what is available.

Even with teh Gudebrod varying from batch to batch, if it sits around for a while in the plastic botlle the consitancy changes (I assume teh Alcoho/solvent evaporates over time). I think this is exactly my problem, I apply it too thick and it doesn't soak in at all. You would think that spending as much time as we do on a wrap, we'd spend as much time making sure the wrap comes out looking like it should, instead of crosing our fingers each time we put the epoxy on.

Mike - I just painted 1/2 a 12" section of a wrap with white. Once it dries, I'll put 1 coat of epoxy, then wrap on it. I'm gonna take Tom up on his offer and try to find some alternatives - but if anyone has any I'd like to hear them. I know a few have been posted on teh boards of late, and I'm starting out by looking there.

THanks.

Billy,
I think that you make a good point that part of the fun is experimenting especially if you are not building a large number rods. But I think that your problem with experimenting with the products that are sold as color preservers is that they will give you inconsistant results. At least I have never been able to get consistant results and have tryed all of the products that I am aware of that are sold as color preservers. And if you are building a larger number of rods you can not afford to be screwing around with something that does not give you consistant predictable results.
Tom also makes a good point. There is most likely something available that will work better that is not presently being sold as a color preserver and I think that you will probably have better luck with your experiments and maybe make a contribution that we will all be better off for if you could find that product. There are all kinds of things that come to mind like wood deck sealer, cork sealer or even PVA which is clear, water soluable but not soluable to epoxy, that might be worthwhile trying.

The best results I've had with light thread in my weaves has been a couple of coats of 811 then a coat of Perma-Gloss before I apply my epoxy. Have to agree whole heartedly with Tom about the consistency of the different batches of 811, I also thin with alchol at about the same ratio as Tom if needed.

One guy, Bill Bohrer, has posted several times with favorable comments about "Varathane Crystal Clear Diamond, blue can". Anyone else tried it? He says he thins it 10% with water.

I had a similar experience recently when my great looking yellow and orange chevron fade turned to crap after CP was applied. I solved the problem by removing the wrap and laying down a base coat of epoxy that I tinted with tan pigment (the same technique used in laying down a base coat when marbling). Works great and is easier than a base coat of light thread.

Emory - I don't build high volume, so I can do all the testing & such for you, lol. Definately a difference between a builder who makes 500 rods+ per year, and one who does 25. I want predictable results, and at teh same time the "best" final prodct. Fo rme that means the CP which gives me the best color retention (for me that is 811), and one which doesn't blotch (for me, usually that is 811 until recently). I know a few others have had these problems specifically with MAdiera in teh past, and I'm looking to do the legwork for them if they cannot or do not have the time to do so.

Dennis - I think the consistancy of the 811 is the key to good results, but how do you measure what the proper consitancy is? If you cut it with Alcohol 6 months ago, it certainly would thicken up on you, so you'd have to cut it again. Back to square one if you don't cut it enough, or even if you cut it too much.

Tom - his e-mail is blocked, but I sent an e-mail to 2 other guys in that thread who use other products. I'd like to know exactly what they've used the alternates for - what thread on what color blank, guides or butt wraps, etc. Keep in mind if they've only used it on a guide wrap, where the blank is a solid color, it might act differently where a butt wrap hads threads wrapped over several different colors - it may keep the color of a thread but at differentlevels based on teh background. That make sense?

DaveS - that's similar to the painting the blank white thing I'm about to try next. But lie I just stated, it will work fine where teh lighter threads are wrapped over teh now white blank, but where teh light threads cross over darker threads I think the problem, or chance of teh problem still exists.

...and I was always wondering why most pictures of these beautiful wraps didn't have finish on them!!
What a pain in the butt it must be to have all that hard work spoiled! I'd be tearing my hair out for sure...

Putter
Williston, ND

Randy - the only reason I don't post pictures with epoxy on teh wraps is teh glare from teh flash. I'm not a Pro, it takes me less than 30 seconds to take teh pics I post. Anyhow, when teh Flash goes off, you cannot see the blotches - I'm not sure why, but my guess is that teh flash hits the blank and the thread "lights up. Teh 3 wraps I cut off, 2 had terrible blotching - but once it was cut off the blank the wraps look perfect. Will post a picture just for you tonight.

Billy
Kinda off subject, but I've found not using the flash and placing up to four lights at low, side angles is helping me with this. I'm still working on this and learning as I go, but for sure, no more flash for me...
I was just shopping for lamps yesterday with Peggy and am thinking on those that I saw and how they might help me with these pictures.

Putter
Williston, ND

Any wrap with finish on it winds up being very difficult to photograph due to the glare from any lighting against the finish. I fight this all the time in shots for RodMaker. Sometimes you can position the object in such a way as to minimize or eliminate the glare, but it's not easy. If I had my choice, all the shots would be done on wraps that hadn't yet been finished.

If you want to take photos of a blotched wrap (without finish) you have to get rid of the flash. As you suspect, it's too much sudden light and will wash out the blotches in teh resulting photo. On manual you can shoot with 400 ISO film (or speed on digital) and a longer shutter time and they'll usually show up just fine. Remember, however, that small aperature/shutter openings and indoor lighting usually mean very long exposure time even with 400 film. You can't hold a camera steady at much less than about 1/125th second so for anything less you really need a tripod, and a shutter cable/release won't hurt.

...........

If you don't have, or if your camera doesn't accept, a cable shutter release, then use the time-delay shutter option that most cameras have (this of course is for a camera on a tripod or other hands-free support). And bounce flash or strong indirect lighting are also options to try.

I do not build a lot of rods, but I do like to put on butt wraps on the rods I do build. Yes the cp is a leap of faith with a lot of re wraps and epoxie scraching. I did post my woes a little while back and Putter had the solution for my guide wrap problem. I also cut it with a little alcohol on the first coat and full strength on the second coat. Not very emperical but it worked this time.
My point? If you find something else please let me in on it.
A long while back somebody posted that they used floor wax and it woked great, I never checked it out but there might be something in it.
Cheers Ron in winnipeg