Can someone recommend the best article on the history and set up behind this concept? I have read numerous articles and posts and have a good idea of what's involved. I would ideally like to have a tell all article as a reference and starting point. I get the impression that it is trial and error with a few guidelines along the way? Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Check out the articals in the back issues of Rodmaker magazine. Very good

Hi Shawn,

I do not know of a definitive write up on Spiral roller rods. I build them and talk about them. Here are the basic points that I follow. I am sure that other designer/builders do it differently.

I use the All American Roller Company's spiral roller guides.

Spine the blank. I install the stripper guide off center of the top of the spine. Others might call this the hard side of the spine as they call the underside of the spine the soft side.

The first 180* guide (closest to the reel) should be installed before the spot where the blank goes from stiff to flex. The bottom of the blank is 180*. You can have more than one 180* located before the blank flexes.

I use the Static Deflection method to locate the 180* guides. I temporarily install them on the top of the blank, flex the blank and move the guides till I have them in the proper location. Then I rotate then to 180*. Over kill? Maybe, but I feel that when the guides are positioned on the 180* line I have done a better job of locating them.

The Transition guides (first 2 above the reel) locations is the heart of the system. They are located so that line entering the guides do not touch the frames and that when loaded the line is in the bottom of the roller. This is easier said than done, sometimes.

The width of the reel spool affects this set up. The wider reels make the Transition guides locations more difficult when the line is against the side of the spool. This is when the line is against the left side of the spool and you are spiraling to the left. The same also when you spiral to the right and the line is against the right side of the spool. This is all due to the angle of the line coming off the spool and entering the guide.

When you order a set of AA Roller spiral guides, they give you starting location points for the guides. This is a big help. Where the guides finally end up will depend on the flex and length of the rod.

I position the 1st transition guide so the line enters the frame properly. I spiral to the left. This can be around 30* to the left of the top center line of the blank. The 2nd transition guide is used to YANK the line down into the 1st transition guide roller when under load. I have this at approx 170* left of top center. When I say "YANK", I mean it. While adjusting the 2nd transition guide you are also moving it up and down the blank till you have it right.

The supreme test is loading the rod up with drag poundage that would normally be used when fighting a big fish on this rod. Make sure the line is in the rollers and not touching the blank or the guide frames.



Here is an example. The blank is a Seeker CTSF 55 XXXH with an AVET 50W Pro EXW 50-2. ( I hope I have the reel model #'s correct). The finished rod is 5' 11" long. The spool of the reel is about 15" up from the butt end.

This set up is spiraled to the left.

#1 Transition Guide 25" in front of the spool center, Approx 30*

#2 Transition guide 4" in front of #1, Approx 162*

#1 180* guide 3 1/4" in front of #2 Transition guide, approx 176*

#2 180* guide 4 7/8" in front of #1 180* guide, 180*

#3 180* guide 5" in front of #2 guide, 180*

#4 1808 guide 5" in front of #3 guide, 180*

This leaves about 5' between the #4 guide and the tiptop.



This set up worked for this particular blank. Each rod has to be set up individually. Use the widest reel that will use on this rod as the set up reel.

Shawn, I hope this gives you an insight into setting up a spiral roller stand up rod.

You are so right when you say their is a lot of trial and error. There is NO MAGIC FORMULA!!!!!

You can contact me at (631) 567-8049 should you ever want to talk this over.


Capt Neil Faulkner

Volume 6 #5 has a good overview of all the various transition methods for the most popular spiral wrap systems. RodMaker has done other articles on the subject as well, but I think the 6-5 issue will tell you more of what you seem to want to know.

...........

Capt. Neil,

I'm hoping to hook up with Dick Merowitz while he is in Morehead City. The waterfront in Morehead, where he is fishing out of, is only 20 minutes away from my house. I would like to get a look at the @#$%& roller he has with him. I learned alot on my first attempt with spiral rollers and hope to see other examples so that I may learn from them also. Can't wait to build more.

Jay Lancaster

Tom, thanks, that's what I was looking for. Can I order that issue when I renew my subscrition this month and if so, what's the cost? Neil, I appreciate your reply and your willingness to help. Perhaps we can chat via email so I don't take up this post with 100 questions. I actually wanted to build a wreck rod first for grouper, snapper, etc... prior to building an offshore stick. I am sure the ideas are the same, however, I would choose to use regular guides rather then rollers for that setup. I would assume the idea is the same with wanting the line to run in the center of the guide rather on the sides. Do the number of transition guides change from blank to blank or are there different theories behind that? I have seen some say an average of 3 guides to get you to 180* but 4 isn't all that uncommon. I kinda figured I would lay the rod out in a normal fashion to get a better idea of guide placement prior to putting them at 180* and transition back to between 20 and 30 degrees. Is there a preferred guide material for this application?

Hi Jay,

Am sitting here wondering if DM caught his giant today. I hope so. If he does it stand up we will never hear the end of it. I hope he does. Give him my best when you see him.

Am waiting for the Seeker blanks to arrive. Am looking forward to building another stand up. This time a short stroker. Guides have not been decided on yet.

I hope you get out and break in that new rod properly.

Capt Neil Faulkner.

Hi Shawn,

I think there are many solutions. I have heard of guys using 2 ring guides with extreme angles. They want the line under the rod as fast as possible. Others like the transition to be as sreamlined as possible.

Remember the first 180* guide must be before the blank flexes. Line is not to touch the blank. Very simple?

Using ring guides is easier than setting up the spiral roller guides.

Grouper rod? How about a Lamiglas CGBT 841 MH or CGBT 961 MH. Sensitive tip, 20 ounces of lead no problem, deep water, user friendly to synthetic line, can be used for tuna, codfish and very strong.

Capt Neil Faulkner

Neil,

I guess that's why I was looking for some good litterature behind the concept of spiral rods, it seems there are a few different styles. I guess I wanted to read the theory behind each to decipher which style was right for me. The general idea behind it seems a simple one and simply a matter of trial and error. Have you worked with ring guides, and if so, what is your preferred guide for the application? That Lami blank is a nice one and a possible consideration. I actually built that blank last year for livelining large live baits herring and adult bunker. I went to visit the inlaws in Hilton Head SC this spring and put a whoopin' on the snapper and grouper with that setup as well. It certainly had the raw power to get them off the bottom, but I would have preferred a slightly lighter tip to absorb the lunges the fish take when they realize what's up. Any thoughts?

Neil,
I'm curious why you state the first 180deg guide must be prior to where the blank flexes. I've wrapped many parabolic old Truline blanks where the that is not the case with no ill effects to date.
What is your reasoning there???
thx

Hi Jim.

You caught me. I should have added that sometimes we build on a parabolic blank and it is impossible to place the first 180* before the flex. In this case there is no choice and obviously the rod works fine.

Why do I say the first 180* guide should be before the flex? I was taught that way. I like to have the guides installed under the blank before the flex point. I feel it may eliminate additional stress.

Also I like to have the line aligned under the blank before the flex.
Just trying to have everything in my favor with hopes of preventing future problems.

It would be nice if we had more builders posting so we can learn from each other.

Capt Neil Faulkner

I like Ralph's method. I don't like making a line turn sharp angles. I think it puts to much stress on the guides. Ferm belever in " The shortest distance between two points is a straight line "

Jim, Neil, Bill, do any of you have a preferred ring guide when rollers aren't an option? Are guide sizes generally the same as a traditional build? Do the transition guides need to be double overwrapped to protect from extra stress? What tool are you using to determine degrees from 0 or 180 that your transition guides are at?

The tool I use is Ralph's soft tip from a fly blank and fly line so it is easier to see the line going though the guides

Bill, I can see where that would help follow the line transitioning through the guides, but often someone will offer up that that the stripper was at 30 degrees, and two transition guides were at 85 and 142 degrees. Obviously knowing what degree each guide is at relative to the 0 degree axis isn't imperative as long as the guidelines are followed with the line following the center bottom or top of each guide and the line doesn't touch the blank under a full load. Out of curiosity, do the guides end up being spaced similar to a conventional rod? In other words from the tip down size 8 at 4 inches, size 8 at 4.5 inches, size 10 at 5 inches, etc.... It appeared on several pictures I looked at today as if there was an incosistency in progessive spacing.

Hi Shawn,

Check out the Lami CGBT 84 1M, 30# class blank and I rate it as a 16 oz sinker blank. That means it will handle 116 oz sinkers without trouble.

I have been emailing the last couple of days with spiral builders. The general consensus is to get the line to the bottom as quick as possible. Some of them pay absolutely no attention to smooth line transition. It is 2 transition guides fast, down and dirty. The guys have the first transition anywhere from 30* to 110*'s. A lot of this depends upon the flex of the blank.

So as you can see it is open season. ll these fellows say their customers love the rods. Find a method that works for you. Good Luck!!!

Capt Neil Faulkner

Up to 30 and sometimes 40# I like Fugi HNSG, 40# to 80# I like Fugi LRSG guides. Usually start with a 20 and work down to size 10. On heavier rods, I've started with the LRSG 25 and ended with a 12 and 12 tip with the larger ring helping with better heat disipation(my theory, have no idea if it works)

I just put LRSG guides on a 40# class rod today, eyeballed each guides with no tools used. First guide was about 10-12 deg, second was about 35, third about 160 fourth about 170 rest at 180. Again just guessing exact degrees. Most important thing to me is after the initial slightly offset "stripper" guides, I want the next two to get the line under the blank as fast as possible and as close to the blank as I dare(usually about1/8", maybe a bit more). I try and balance the 2nd and 3rd guides so they are equal dist from the 0 deg axis with just enough line clearance to clear the blank.

I triple wrap all guides and put finish all all coats. Never had a guide come loose on tuna up to 106#
I tried the Oquinn method when it first appeared in Rodmaker and didn't like the guides sticking out at 90 deg so I wrapped identical 8' blanks with his method and the method I now use and noticed no difference in casting live bait and have wrapped all my acid rods that way since, about 50 total to date. No problems with any of them other than the normal stares and endless questions re upside down guides etc, etc, etc,

Jim, thank you for your reply! I look forward to building the first in my collection to prove for myselff the advantages. Thanks to all for the help!