There has been lots of debate going on about the merits of wrapping a heavy standup tuna rod using @#$%& spiral roller guides. For me as a rodbuilder, it is hard to explain the merits and the mechanics of why the spiral wrapped rods work and what are the inherant advantages. Lots have been stated about disadvantages by bystanders who have never had a spiral wrapped rod in their hands let alone use one. For me, I just know it works and feels good to me. But how do I explain what is happening when a rod is spiral wrapped? Btw, I am not trying to convert anyone.

I have a boat rod that is built off spine about 45 degrees. I would like to convert it to a spiral wrapped rod. To save me alot of trouble, I am thinking of just stripping off the guides and start rebinding them; leaving the rod off spine. is alright if I do that? How will it affect the performance of the rod?

I would be great if anyone could give some tips about the spine on spiral wrapped rods.

Thanks..

There are no disadvantages in practical use. The only way to show the disadvantages of a conventional wrapped, guides on top rod, is to tell the guys to remove the gimbals on their rods and try to hold the foregrip of their rods in an open palm. Obviously, they can't do this with a fish on the end of the line - the rod will flip upside down on them. With the spiral wrapped version, the rod will sit perfectly stable in their open palm. It will not "fight" them as the conventional version does.

Because spiral rods reduce the amount of effort require by the angler, because a spiral wrap does not harm the rod, because the guides are not going to be bent or twisted in their wraps, there are only advantages in practical application. I still have not heard nor seen anyone prove any actual disadvantages to the spiral wrap in actual on the water use.

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Vincent,

The spine is really of no concern in your situation. The spiral wrap will create an inherently stable rod regardless of where the spine is oriented.

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Thanks Tom but what about the effects on the blank itself when comparing conventionally wrapped vrs spiral wrapped rods? Does conventionally wrapped rods put additional stress on the blank in comparison to spirally wrapped rods? Recently, on the west coast boat "Excel" a spiral wrapped roller rod was used to catch tuna of 220 and 187 pounds. The complaint of the crew was that they were not accustomed to handling the rod in a tangle, were afraid of the position of the line (spectra), and concerned about other anglers getting hit on the head ( by the guide as opposed to the blank) as the rod is passed over them while under load from a big tuna. All the disadvantages were in relation to other anglers' safety and the safety of the crew in handling a rod that they are not accustomed with. Possible lacerations from the guides and possible line cuts while crew handling of the rods were cited but in fact never occurred. What do you think. Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

Mel,
It really comes down to being careful on the boat, with any deep sea fishing this is true no matter what equipment is used. Adjusting to this is no different than adjusting to any other danger in fishing. If the crew is afraid of the rod or it's line path they would likely be afraid of the conventional rods an all the other things in a boat including knifes, hooks, etc... The advantage of not having to deal with rod twist is that you eliminate a large portion of the fatigue that occurs when fighting larger fish, which would likely decrease the number of mistakes made on the boat.


As for stress on the rod, I do not believe that this would make a difference as long as the propper placement and number of guides are used on the rod. It would likely be better for a rod than the twisting that occurs with standard guide placement as the tip guides try to turn to the bottom of the rod twisting the rod somewhat for it's entire length.

No, if anything, there is less stress on the blank that has been spiral wrapped. But even so, this is really a non-issue. All blanks can take a certain amount of torsional stress. It is unlikely any blank will fail from torsional stress unless you cause twist that exceeds a good many degrees (90 or greater). Such a thing can happen on conventionally wrapped rods (in some cases) but it would never happen on a spiral wrapped rod. Even if you held the rod butt absolutely stationairy (locked into a rigid gimbal) you'd never have the line applying pressure from more than a handful of degrees off the 180 axis.

Keep in mind that the line seeks to move to the most direct path to the fish. On a conventional rod, that's always going to be nearly 180 degrees away. On a spiral wrapped rod, the line is already where it wants to be - on the underside of the rod.

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One more thing that's worth mentioning - on a rod such as those you're working with, you want to set it up so that under maximum load, you have a very straight line path. In other words, with the rod fully loaded, you would be able to cut off the transition guides, and the line would not move - it would be in the position that it prefers if no guides were employed.




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I understand that the direct line path is optimum but how would you accomplish this with the @#$%& roller guides. It appears to me that the only way I can get it to work is to use a two guide transition. The first transition guide placed at 25 inches from top center of reel and offset at 30 degrees. The second transition guide placed at 29 inches and offset at 160 degrees. The balance of the guides will be at 180 degrees. Not a straight line path at maximum load. Other combinations usually result in not being able to keep the line in the grooves of the first transition roller guides. It appears to me that the 4" spacing between the first and second transition guides forces the line to stay on the rollers of the first transition guide. If you have had luck with any other combinations with more guides in transition, I would very much like to try it.
Thank you so very much for your comments.

I was glad somebody brought this up. Correctly done there is no pressure on the transition guides when the rod is fully loaded.

With the @#$%& rollers you have the height of the butt roller to deal with. But, if you set the transition rollers up correctly, you'll see that under full load the line pressure is directly against the roller and into the blank, not at any angle or side pressure. The best illustration of this I have seen was on the cover of one of this year's copies of Rodmaker. #4? I think.

Were would you get the setup & placement of guildes, if you want to try to build one, say for a 6' or 6'6"
Thanks
Steve
PS will try @ least Once

The biggest argument against this setup IMO is the very real possibility of damaging the guides when the rod hits the boat gunnels. With an experienced angler, it's not really a concern. But I would never make a rod like this for a charter boat. Tired anglers often smack the rod when pumping the fish, in very heavy seas, or during a hard run from a big fish. A heavy tuna blank can take a few smacks, but no guide will tolerate this kind of abuse for long.

Steve, I will try to answer your question but I am still trying to learn the setup. I will post my final stats as soon as I can test it fully and make the rod. Mike, I constantly hear this reason against spiral wrapping. I have been building and using spiral wrapped rods with ring guides for about two years now. I use them all the time for tuna up to 100 lbs using lines up to 50# test. On a sport boat where we fish with upwards of 30 passengers, I have never encountered this problem . With standup fishing, west coast style, one has to brace oneself against the gunnels of the boat by bending ones knees against the gunnel and placing one's elbows/forearms onto the railing. The first guide is about 25 inches from the reel and that guide is still on the upper part of the blank. Even this guide is not even close to the rail and there is little chance that it would hit the railing of the sportfishers. However, you have to pay attention when working your rod at the bow of the boat since typically the railing is very wide there and one has to work around the anchor winch and pulpit. There, you do have a chance of this happening and one must be careful.

Mike's point is certainly worth considering in some situations. Thanks for bringing it up.

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Mike Naylor,

It's seems that you have not seen or handled a set of @#$%& Roller Guides. These guides have an extremely low profile and are rugged, being made with 304 stainless steel. They will absolutely take the kind of abuse that you talked about and keep on working without failure.

These guides are not like the conventional flimsy chrome-plated brass roller guides.

I placed a 180 degree @#$%& roller guide under my car tire, then ran over it,. Guess What? - The guide is still in perfect condition. Try that with a conventional flimsy chrome-plated brass roller guide.

John Mantele (aka: @#$%&)

John, I can attest to the @#$%& guide's stronger frame. You can't bend them like the aftco hd roller. In fact, on my next conventionally wrapped roller rod, I will use the AA roller guide because they are made of stainless and the rollers are much wider to accept windons without problem.