Need to convince an old timer who will not build with St Croix blanks that hey are not of inferior quality. He will work with a loomis blank, but feels tha St. Croix is crap. How do I convince him otherwise without resorting to hypnotism?

why not just use a loomis for this client?

eric
fresno, ca.

Order one of each and show them to him. After he sees that twisted, crooked Loomis next to that nice straight St. Croix he shouldn't need any further convincing.

Outside of that St. Croix is regarded by many here as an industry leader. They have some industry leading equipment in their plant. They have come out with the IPC technology which increases durability with the more fragile high modulus graphites. They are a company that continues to grow and to move forward developing new materials and processes to further the industry.

If he's a fly fisherman, let him read on this site how most of us, given the choice, would rather build and fish with a St. Croix or Five Rivers than a Loomis. Equal or better quality at much less cost.

Thanks guys, keep 'em coming!

I build and fish both. In the right condition, St Croix have some very fine rods. I prefer pre-Shimano GLoomis blanks, and for that very reason, I have quite a few sitting in a corner, waiting for some attention. To tip it slightly to GLoomis, I think GLoomis rods have better backbone than St Croix. IMHO

by the way, i wasn't trying to say that loomis is better than st croix.

as a general question, if your client is dead set on a particular rod despite your recommendation, do you build what he wants or suggest he turn elsewhere for a builder?

just wondering.

eric
fresno, ca.

Matt, I have been building rods since 1947 and if I have learned one thing is that the customer is always right. I have had clients bring me blanks that resemble broom sticks. I have wrapped them and they left smiling. Regardless what you think I doubt with all your effort you will change the old timers mind. Al Tennant

I agree with you Al.

Give the customer what he wants. If he wants a twisted, crooked Loomis instead of a nice straight St. Croix - it's his money.

If he's an old drinking buddy, make him a Loomis, make yourself a similar rod on a St. Croix, then never let him forget his mistake.

St. Croix's rock!

I agree with him. St. Croix fly rods are crap!!! I hate the two factory Legand Ultra's that I owned. Not worth the money at all. I'm not a fan of Loomis either. Give him what he want's. That is the correct thing to do. Unless you are prepared to let him cast several rods then choose. You won't win.

Wow, Kurt, I'm shocked to hear you say the Legend Ultra UF864 is "not worth the money at all". That is one of the sweetest rods I have ever owned. At $280 for the factory rod and about $170 that I have in mine, I'd say it is money very well spent. Maybe you don't like the action, but do you really think it's crap?? Did a St. Croix employee run off with your wife?? You sound angry.

I don't speak up against St. Coix very often, because they are American made and have gotten a lot of people, including your's truely into fly fishing. Their lower priced rods (premier, imperial) are a good value for some one starting out in the sport.

The factory Legend Ultra's are not worth the money IMHO. There are a lot of very nice rods out there in the $250 - $350 range. I personally don't feel St. Croix is one of them. Though I have not owned one in 8 years. I really really disliked both the 866 and the 864 that I owned. Casting wise, the 866 was ok. The 864 was a dog of a rod.

I feel that there are 4 types of factory rods out there. Ones that put out top preformance with good looks and great R&D. Ones that put out good preformance with lower end hardware. One that have medium preformance and good hardware. Then there are the Wally world rods that I won't get into. Some manufactures put out rods in at least 3 of the catagories. I feel that St. Croix rods are in the 3rd catagory.


My two personal favorite factory rods in the $250 - $300 price range are the Sage DS2 and the Winston IBIS. Both rods CC well and are by far my favorite casting rods. I am not real fond of the DS2's looks, but I'll can over look that for profromance reasons. The AA for both of these rods fall right in line with the SCIV. So action probably did not play a huge roll.

I could only wish a St. Croix employee ran off with my wife. Then I could beat him senceless with a reel fly rod LOL :)

Joe,
Your client is already convinced for himself what he wants. Trying to change his mind either hypnotically, or otherwise ultimately becomes a matter of opinion. You could go through the facts about St. Croix development with good progress in domestic blank production for over 40 years, and you could point out features that their blank designers use for making their high end blanks a premier quality product. You may never convince him, but you could compare specific graphite composition and models by what is available for the specs and go from there. I agree also that the pre Shimano owned Loomis blanks were a superior product to what's made by Loomis now. Again, that's a personal opinion, and what I hear a lot from rod builders and anglers. I also get a lot of great feedback from those who are my St. Croix customers. Mostly, they will honestly evaluate models they've used and what they liked about them.
Fact is that both Loomis and St. Croix are proven product lines. There are lots of both out there, but perhaps the more current St. Croix to compare with is more appropriate as they continue to be availailable with constancy.

Rich Garbowski
Richard's Rod & Reel

Kurt,

Sounds like you have your reasons well though out and I can certainly respect that but disagree strongly with your assessment of St. Croix quality. I'm pretty sure they make better tools for fishing than for beating people with though. Plus the warranty no longer covers breakage for that type of use.

Steve

Steve,

I haven't managed to break a St. Croix yet, so maybe they are good for beating.

In all seriousness, maybe crap was too harsh of a word. There quality as far as fit and finish is ok. Their factory components are very nice. A lot of people love St. Croix rods. I give their marketing department credit for that. You can get a St. Croix just about anywere. Some of the others may have two shops in the entire state that carry them. I don't think their sales would be as strong were they are sold beside some of the others in an area were test casting is allowed.

My comments were based on personal oppinion just like your self. I guess I should have portrade them as such. I am a little two faced on the subject though. I do like St. Croix spinning rods. The 7' UL is very nice.

I may have to give a new SCIV a try some day. I am sure they have made some improvments since I purchased my last one while working for a sporting goods retailer. Those darn dealer promos. They put my name on the rod so I could sell it.

Kurt, you apparently haven't walked the Wally World sporting goods department. You won't find a St. Croix in a Wally world.

Joe,
While it's between bells between Steve and Kurt (great discussion you two have going on btw), I'm dealing with this exact thing with a fisherman at the moment (Loomis rules, St. Croix is no better than Shakespeare) who wanted better performance than his IMXs.

I made a deal with him. I'm building him a St. Croix and if he can honestly tell me that he doesn't like it at least as much as his collection of Loomis sticks after fishing it, I'll build him another Loomis at my cost and keep the St. Croix myself.

Brand loyalty is a hard nut to crack, and I'm guilty of it myself, but I feel strongly enough about St. Croix blanks that I'll bet my profit margin on this deal.

I broke 2 very expensive St. Croix rods this summer, without what I consider unusuall abuse. Snapped em right off. I stripped the guides off and now they sit in the corner looking expensive and broken. I wont buy another, or a blank to build on. If anyone wants a rod to beat people with, I suggest a Calstar stand up tuna blank.