The thread below was getting too deep and too long but I wanted to add some comments on the topic.

I have no idea what amount of actual torque exists on a rod in a fight with a fish, but I know that whatever torque exists on a spiral rod it is much, much, much less than on a conventional rod. And if the torque on a spiral rod only serves to make it that much more stable, then it doesn't hurt a thing.

In the world of real fishing, saltwater, you learn firsthand what works against you and what works for you. I build for charter captains and do some chartering myself. I get to see fishermen using the various rods and know which rods they have to fight and which ones they don't. The difference between a spiral and a conventional rod against big fish is like night and day. You get comments on the funny looks but at day's end the fishermen are all fighting over using the spiral wrapped rods. They make a BIG difference.

They make an even bigger difference in surf fishing. It's amazing how the longer rods magnify the twisting problem. Until I built my first spiral wrapped surf rod I didn't really know how much my regular surf rods were fighting me. I thought it was the fish but a lot of it was the rod.

You guys that don't believe any of this really need to study up on the various spiral transition methods and build one for yourself and try it out. You'll be doing yourself a big favor no matter if you fish for bass or kings.

I read through those 40+ posts. Since I'm pretty new to this, I'll stay out of it, but I do have a few questions but spiral-wraps.

Would you suggest spiral wrap on a big-bladed spinnerbait or big crankbait rod? Most of your time fishing these baits will bend the rod backwards--putting the torque on the rod that you are trying to eliminate.

I've read of 3 different ways of placing the guides on spiral wraps. I guess it would help if I remembered which is which by name, but, sorry, I don't. 1) first guide directly on top; 4th guide directly on bottom. 2) First and fourth guide slightly off-center placing the line at 180 degrees. 3) first guide starts around the rod.

Which is better?

I don't do much bass fishing but I do build a few of those rods. I would think you want to consider how much load you put on a rod and when stability is most important. When retrieving a lure or when fighting a fish. I doubt you flex the very deeply even when throwing and retrieving a really big spinnerbait. But even a fish of a couple pounds will put a good bow in the rod. So I still think the spiral will be what you want.

I use the O'Quinn method but many tournament bass guys favor the Revolver Rod made popular by Rich Forhan. His system slightly offsets the first guide away from the side you're spirally too so that the line enters the guide at the very center of the rod. Then he uses one at 60 degrees, 120 degrees and then 180 the rest of the way. I've not heard any complaints about doing it that way so it might be a good one to start with. It's easy to set up and seems to work just as advertised.

Mike,
I am in total agreement of your explanation about spiral wrap for any level wind reel setup. It's also a very stable setup for heavy musky fishing whether using short shock 'prop wash' trolling to long 9' trollers set in boat holders, or rods used all day casting to reduce fatigue.
It's something that is once tried will be more convincing than verbally theorizing. It's rare you'll hear any drawbacks about a well built spiral wrapped rod, except maybe from those adhering to the fact it's not something that looks 'conventional'.

Rich Garbowski

O'Quinn places the first guide slightly off center toward the spiral? Isn't that right?

The O'Quinn system focuses on getting a very straight line path out to the tip. So the first guide is set to one side towards the spiral by anywhere from 15 to 25 degrees. You have to "shoot" a straight rod tip section down through the guides to locate them in such a way that the line can move straight from the reel to the first 180 guide in a pretty straight path.

Now here's another way and it was mentioned by someone on this board that I cannot remember their name, but it's a good way to do this and another method that works well.

Put your guides on the rod just like you were doing a standard set up with the guides on top. Use surgical tubing to hold them in place. Now string the line up and put a load on the rod. Really load it good. The guides will shift around the rod into the positions they naturally favor! I've done a couple like this and have to say it really works pretty well.

"ROD TORQUE & SPIRAL WRAPPING" - This Forum Thread is a carry-over from the discussion of "How many guides are too many?" [Marc Forrest 11-21-04 23:02], which had 52 Replies . It had drifted into the consideration of rod torque & spiral wrapping. I've been thinking about this on & off for the last 3 months, but I'm gonna strive to be as brief as possible. (For me!)

Emory Harry is correct in his discussion of torque & moments:
At the 6 o'clock position in the guide ring, the line exerts zero torque because the length of the effective lever is zero. But the line actually is trying to slice right thru the rod's vertical plane of symmetry and come out the other side.

Tom Kirkman is also correct about the intrinsic tendency of the fishing line threaded thru the guides of a loaded fishing rod to move to the inside of the curved rod. In fact, even if the rod didn't bend, the line would seek to move toward the direction of pull, which is toward the fish.

Both these views are correct and valid within their context. But once we do anything other than simply point the rod tip directly at a fish that is running away from us, then there will be a transfer of that line tension to the rod in such a way that the rod bends and the line is inclined to position itself on the rod in such a way that it reaches a state of the lowest potential energy for the entire system.

If the balance of forces from the torque side of the equation (loaded rod & line moment) are greater than the restraining forces (your hand grip and arm tuck of the rod butt), then that rod is going to turn over. Period. End of story. And the one variable that can be changed which makes the greatest single contribution to minimizing that torque while the rod is loaded in real-world use is to SPIRAL WRAP THAT RASCAL. Yes, a gimbal can also counter the torque, but a lite rod tip may still be twisted axially, even if the rod doesn't turn over.

No single placement pattern of the guides will eliminate all rod torque in every possible use of the rod in fishing. But for fighting a fish with a drag set for anything bigger than about one pound, a SPIRAL WRAP will be the single most effective thing that can be done with the guides to minimize rod torque. And the higher the drag setting & the longer the fight, the more of an advantage that becomes. No matter who much acid (LSD) I think the first spiral wrapper was on when he wrapped the 1st one.

The choice remains the builders, but the physics favor a spiral.
End of epiphany-soliloquy. IMO, -Cliff Hall-, Gainesville, FL.

... Almost! While hunkered-down waiting for Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne to either kill us or leave us alone 2 months ago, I had a lot of time to think about all this (and lots of other things!). Anyway, it didn't take long to realize that the best demonstration would be to use a quality rolling spine finder, like Denny Venutolo did [Re: how many guides are too many? Denny Venutolo 11-20-04 20:43]. That's one test that perfectly models the real situation and eliminates the human factor, and shows that even a small load on the rod produces torque and a roll-over.

For testimonial evidence, my favorite has to be from a "Billy 40" - Re:
Surf Stix & Spirals -Billy 40- 12-01-01, 21:21 (Read with NY accent)
"You wanna see the Meat stick twist ? - take it out to 17 Fathoms
[off Montauk] where there are Gators (still around up to 20 #) -
hook one and see what happens when the fish runs under the boat.
The rod WILL TWIST. Also, when swinging a fish (Brooklyn style) -
EVERY guy on that boat, before he swings the fish, flips his rod
upside down; I assume because the rod has absolutely no stability
when a green 15 pound Bluefish is being swung 10 feet [through the air]. Long Island talk here, guys. - Bill

Cliff,
I think that you did a much better job of explaining it than I did, thanks.

Discussions are usually most helpful when they convey helpful information for the matter at hand. When things move off on a tangent and begin to involve discussions that no longer provide helpful information in a concise and direct manner to the actual subject matter, they do little more than take up bandwidth. The original discussion got off base once it was moved away from which rod would twist and which wouldn't, under load from a fish. But no matter - that's what the board is for and as long as nobody flames anybody else, it's all within the context of why this place exists.

One of the reasons I have always considered Rich Forhan the very best writer that RodMaker has, is because he knows how to present the necessary information in the most concise and helpful form (The U.S. military knew this too and had Rich write instructional manuals when he wasn't flying jet fighters). It's not easy to do and few have the talent. But those that do are the best teachers among us.

With regard to rod stability and the reasons behind why a builder would choose to use a spiral wrap over a conventional wrap. It is enough to say that a spiral wrapped rod is inherently stable while a conventional rod is inherently unstable. I appreciate Cliff's "nutshell" analysis and hope those of you wondering how to eliminate rod twist can see the reason that guides belong on the bottom of all rods.

As I said earlier, we'll have a demo unit in Charlotte and those who believe that rods with guides on top are even reasonably stable or that spiral wrapped rods have any sort of disadvantage will be able to decide for themselves what's up, and what's down (apologies to Denny).

.................

No apology necessary and I hope I didn't offend anyone earlier. But it does irk me when people get so far off the track to try and prove a point that doesn't matter anyway.

Remember that graphite rods cause cancer. There is a sticker on them now that says so. But the correct answer when a fisherman asks if his new rod is going to give him cancer would be to ignore the sticker as it has no bearing on a guy buying a few rods and taking them fishing. The other position is to argue about how it can cause cancer if he sleeps with them, eats them or licks them for at least 12.8 years and has a family history of graphite induced cancer. The second position is correct but is also totally outside the bounds of what 99.9% of fishermen do with their rods. This is what irked me about the spiral wrap discussion.

Spiral wrapping will prevent the rod twisting on you during a fight. And spiral wrapped rods will cast just as far as conventional rods will. There are no actual disadvantages to using it for any casting reel or under any conditions. Whatever torque exists on a spiral wrapped rod will be infinitely less than it is on a conventionally wrapped rod which will always try to twist on you.

Discussion is great but in the long run all anyone has to do is just try things for themselves. You don't have to know anything about torsion or moment arms to discover for yourself which rod will fight you and which one won't. If your goal is only to find out which makes fishing easier for you personally, then just build one of each and take them out and try them.

If you want to learn all the technical ins and outs of how systems work then I would suggest you bury your noise in a textbook. If you just want to find out which rod is easier to fight a fish with or which casts further why not just try one of each for yourselves? I think this was the gist of the original question and it got clouded in other things. But in rod building we can discover many of these things for ourselves if we're willing to invest just a little time and effort

Thanks, Denny for reporting your test in the spine finder with the reel mounted on top. My last private objection to a spiral wrap had been if the weight of the reel itself had been making a significant contribution to this roll-over effect. Your use of a rod load of as little as ~ 6 oz shows that with a spiral wrapped rod, there is essentially no torque present to cause the reel to roll-over. ... Well, you all have finally made a believer out of me. Thanks for this careful discussion of the physics & empirical evidence confirming that "spiral wraps kill the torque !" -Cliff Hall-

Well now I find myself having to defend Emory! Spiral rods do kill the torque, but only that torque that was previously working against the angler. Like most rod builders and fishermen, I talk about rod torque as being that torque which fights or works against you, not that which works for you. What you can't feel or see is usually a non-issue.

The guides will always attempt to align themselves with, or move towards, the direction where the load is being applied from. On a spiral wrapped rod the guides are already much closer to being in line with the direction that any such load is going to come from, than on a conventional guides-on-top rod which always finds itself completely at odds with any load applied from the direction of the water.

...........

Cliff,

The reel does certainly contribute to the "roll-over" effect as you call it - nearly all rods will certainly flip upside down in an unloaded state, due to the weight of the reel not being perfectly centered. But Denny and Charlie are correct in how easily this is offset by even a small load applied to a spiral wrapped rod. I hope you can make it out to Charlotte to play with the demo unit. It pretty much approximates about anything that could happen out on the water. While rod builders may find it "old hat" I think it will be a revelation and a great conversation piece for the general fishermen in attendance.


........

Tom,
Thank you for your defense. It appears that I need it. I obviously did not state my case well because many seem to think that I was agruing the relative merits of either spiral wrapped or conventionally wrapped rods. That was not my intent. My intent was simply to try to point out that some torque is unavoidable and the statement that has been made by some that there is no torque with a spiral wrapped rod is in error.

Lord, are my eyes tired!!!!
Putter

Cliff is right on. Its all about the pivot. Im currently taking calculus-based physics, and struggled through more than I want to know about torque forces and static equilibria. Don't forget the right-hand rule!

Cliff, where'd you di gthat post from, lol. That was a long time ago, I just said teh same exact thing today in an e-mail to someone, lol.

Would there be any momentary torsional confusion on a rod which has the guides spiralled 360 degrees? I be the rod would be as dizzy as Putter is after reading these 2 threads.

Yes, Gentlemen, I will stand corrected and agree with Tom Kirkman that, "spiral wraps kill the torque!" is a bit of an exaggeration. I was looking for a slogan that had more of a ring to it than the more acccurate statement "spiral wraps MINIMIZE the torque". ... The context of my words did include the statement that "No single placement pattern of the guides will eliminate all rod torque in every possible use of the rod in fishing." And once again, Emory Harry, you are right as well: some torque is unavoidable.

... Now all I gotta do is get out and try one of these. I, like Putter reading all these threads, have made myself dizzy with all this (and my own) pontification. I need to get out and slam some fish !

And to "Billy 40", now Billy "V" Vivona: I thought that was you, but I wasn't sure. I did a search on spiral wraps back in August when I came on board to RodBuilding.Org. Your proof was one I could relate to. I used to fish for bluefish with Joey Cordero on Capt. Walter (Weigens' ?) FLAMINGO III out of Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn back in the day. Swinging slammer blues aboard is another great proof if "You wanna see the Meat-stick twist ?" - I love it ! Thanks for the memories.

A real big "Happy Thanksgiving" to everybody. -Cliff Hall-, Gainesville, FL.

Cliff - for 3 years I was a regular in the Fall on the Flamingo. Walter's son Bobby now runs the boat. Right now they are doing extremely well jigging Bass into the 20# range, the boat was JAM PACKED this Sat/Sunday, and they did very well. Walter still shows up EVERY morning to hawk customers as they come off the Belt Parkway. Small world.

I'm glad you can relate to swinging big Bluefish with meat sticks - "swing it or lose it!"

That was how Cliff and I "met". It was a nice discussion thread on spiral wrapped rods. HTG to you, too, Cliff.

Putter