Tom/Dennis,
I think that maybe you should think a little more about your FACTS. You both said that a spiral wrapped rod will not twist under load.
1. It will twist under load if the load is not on the plane of the center of the rod. Think about the situation where the load if off at a high angle either to the left or the right. The line will naturally move from directly on the bottom of the guides that are on the bottom of the rod off to one side, off of the center axis of the rod. This creates a small moment arm at each guide which results in torque which will cause the rod to try to twist. In fact, because the line is farther from the center of the rod than would be the case with a conventionally wrapped rod where the line rides closer to the center axis of the rod, the moment arm can be longer with a spiral wrapped rod and the torque in this case could actually be higher than with a conventionally wrapped rod. Naturally this will depend on the number of guides that are in transition and the number on the bottom. In other words, if the load is off at an angle there will be torque that translates into twist on either type of rod.
2. If the load is not off at an angle but on the center line of the rod the transition guides on a spiral wrapped rod are also off of the center axis of the rod so a moment arm is created that results in torque that will translate into the rod trying to twist. However, in this case as it starts to twist the guides on the bottom of the rod as they move off the center axis of the rod will start to create small moment arms but these moment arms are in the opposite direction as those created by the transition guides so they will only get large enough to offset the moment arm created by the transistion guides. This is basically what make the spiral wrapped rod stable under load.

I will conceed again that under load, at least loads that are on or near the center axis of the rod, a spiral wrapped rod will be more stable but your FACT that there is no torque and no twist on a spiral wrapped rod is not quite a fact.

The line cannot be off at a very high angle to the side, unless you're fighting a seagull, low flying though he may be. In any case, a spiral wrapped rod is never going to flip, spin, or twist in the manner that a conventionally wrapped guides-on-top rod wants to and very often does. I'm not going to argue theoretical situations that fishermen aren't actually faced with. The fish we fight are below the rod and the line and guides will follow that direction. Put them on the bottom and they're already where they want to be. Put them on top of the rod and they will attempt to relocate to the bottom, taking the rod with them if they have to.

Let's re-word this in a way that should make everyone, possibly even Emory, happy.

On a spiral wrapped rod, torque works to your advantage by keeping the reel upright and twisting forces off the angler.

On a conventional rod with the guides on top, torque works against you by attempting to twist the rod upside down.

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Tom,
If you think that my arguments are theoretical situations that fishermen do not run into then I am obviously not expressing myself well. But at least you are no longer saying that there is no torque, or twist if you prefer, with a spiral wrapped rod and I am at least thinking about it more so maybe we have gained some headway.

Just for the record though I do not agree totally or completely agree with either of your last statements.

I'm well aware of the board rules here and it is not my intention to insult anyone but I have to say that reading these posts is starting to get silly. Some of the arguments being made in order to justify a position taken are getting outside of what reasonable people would bother with and they sure don't approximate what fishermen on this planet will ever encounter.

Even with a fish swimming away and off to the side the angle will never be high enough to upset the spiral wrapped rod by more than a few degrees. On a conventional wrapped rod even the best case scenario is a fish swimming way off to the side at the highest angle possible and even then the rod is going to want to move 160 degrees or more.

No offense meant to Emory, but these arguments are getting outlandish.

There is no twist to mention on a spiral wrapped rod - they're inherently stable. All conventional wrapped rods, however, do attempt to twist and often do twist when under load. These statements don't need to be reduced any further to be helpful in practical fishing situations.

In Charlotte, we'll have a nice display with both types set up and loaded. Try as you might, you won't be able to upset the spiral wrapped rod and you won't be able to keep the conventional wrapped rod upright without holding it. Most builders already know this but we're going to have it there for those who don't yet understand the rationale behind it. Come play with it if you make it out to the show.

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Emory; No more beer for you

While reading through this thread, I'm reminded of why I appreciate my spinning rods so much: both the reel and the line are on the bottom, where they belong. My old bones appreciate that, whether or not there's a big'un on the hook. (For the record: I use one conventional rod, and that's spiral wrapped, the others stay in the garage.)

I have noticed with a wider spool reel, that even with a spiral wrap the rod will rock back and forth slightly when you crank. Specifically, an Avet EX Wide 4/0 on a GUSA Predator. Maybe I botched up the spiral wrap on teh rod, or mabe I expected zero rocking side to side, but I did notice it wasn't as stable as my other rods which have narrower spools.

Try this test. Put a heavy off shore with a 4.0 reel on it and spiral wrapped in a spine finder .It will flip over with the reel on bottom. Now put a force on the line as a heavy fish would and you will see the reel come back on top. To me this showes just how stable a spiral wrapped rod is My 2 cents worth
Charlie Block

Billy,

How is that same reel on a conventional rod? Let me guess, it's much worse!

I think Emory is splitting hairs to a degree that isn't necessary for rod building. There is certainly torque on any rod that has guides on it. But the point that others are making is that such torque has little effect on a spiral wrapped rod because most of the time any torque that is there is actually contributing to keeping the rod stable. On a conventional rod, that same torque is far greater and is trying to spin the rod completely upside down and will do so if you let go of the rod. I do have some factory graphite rods that I can see the tip twist around from 45 to 90 degrees when on to a good fish. It's downright spooky!

The debate over which is more stable has been over for 100 years. There is no reason to continue debating something that has been proven beyond any doubt so long ago. If anything needs to be discussed or debated, it's what spiral method is best for you!

Bill,
I was not drinking beer I was drinking wine and either I drank too much or not enough because I do not think that I made my case very well. I was not attempting to build a case for or against spiral wrapped rods. I was simply attempting to point out that some of the statements being made about spiral wrapped rods are patiently false. One of these statements is "there is NO torque with a spiral wrapped rod". Some torque is unavoidable however the rod is wrapped and I do not believe that those that are strong advocates for spiral wrapped rods, over the long haul, are doing themselves or the case for spiral wrapped rods any favors by making statements that are just not true.
With that I think I will have another glass of wine.

Bill Vivona: My theory about what your saying is that the width of the reel itself forces the rocking your talking about, and is the reason that I still put a gimbal on the 40lb Graphiter I recently spiral wrapped. I think narrower spooled reels don't rock as much, and has little to do with how the rod is wrapped, although a spiral wrap may help out.

I think the argument was over whether or not a spiral wrapped rod twisted on you or not. It doesn't. A conventional wrapped rod does.

I am in awe with all this techinical, micro-analysis, and force theories that a fishing rod is subjected to, AND it all makes sense.
I fish for largemouth bass and I use both spinning and conventional casting rods. I routinely catch bass ranging from 2 to 5 lbs, with an ocassional 8 or 10 pounder. HOWEVER here is my problem, when I catch these fish I am too busy crapping in my pants with excitement that I am oblivious to all the side forces, unbalances, torque effects and any other parameter that affects the rod while fighting a fish.
Am I drinking wine out of a jelly glass and missing some profound uplifting soul shattering experience? HELP!

Sorry folks, Just having a little fun.

I think it is great that we are so energetic and passionate over our craft. It gives great food for thought and advances the state of the art.

The spiral wrap has merit and I recommend making one even if its just for the experience.

Keep up the good work.

HAPPY Holidays to all.

John

John, I can relate to the crapping in pants part. I use baitcasting rods in certain areas of a numbe or rivers where King Salmon go 35-50 plus. On those 8.5 foot rods, I don't even think about side torque, and I've not really noticed it much either. I am just to busy trying to soften the grin on my face so I have the energy to land the fish. I think women and kids unfamiliar with a baitcasting setup fight the rod so much because of the lengthy handles so often equipped. My wife and son use spinning rods for that reason.
I do think spiral-wrapped rods have merit, and I think I have just the right halibut rod to experiment with before the beginning of next fishing seaon.

Patrick Vernacchio