rodbuilding folks,

i'm getting ready to finish my 6'6" 2 piece all star blank - handles done. currently this bait casting rod is to be conventionally wrapped using 9 single foot guides including the tiptop... however, when i mount my levelwind reel and test the blank w/guides under a load i find that the line touches the blank in several places.

btw, the guides are fuji concept SIC titanium framed guides. the tiptop is 6mm while the single foot guides go from 7mm to an 8mm and two double footed guides a 10 and a 12. you can see them here:

[www.shofftackle.com]

i know i can use a spiral wrap and eliminate this problem, but i am now inclined to use a conventional wrap as i reckon i can cast light 1/4 oz. lures a greater distance than with the spiral wrap.

{this was based on my first rod - same size - using a spiral wrap and level wind reel - using 6lb test line i was not able to cast light lures very far at all.}

anyway how many guides might a blank like this sport? has anyone built this size blank in the baitcasting configuration? what's the maximum no. of guides one can/should mount?

thanks for any advise.

mforrest

Nine sounds like enough. Have you tried repositioning them to eliminate line slap? If that doesn't work, then I believe how ever many you need to eliminate the problem is the correct amount. I don't think spiral wrpping will negatively affeect your casting ability.

The spiral wrap probably could affect how a rod casts if it's not test casted &/or set up where the line can shoot through the guides like a regular straigt guide config. How does the line know its's going around the blank - as long as there is a relativel straight path from reel to teh tip top, the line will (or should I say "Should") behave teh same.

Billy said..."The spiral wrap probably could affect how a rod casts if it's not test casted &/or set up where the line can shoot through the guides like a regular straigt guide config. How does the line know its's going around the blank - as long as there is a relativel straight path from reel to teh tip top, the line will (or should I say "Should") behave the same."

too true... Billy

i suspect my troubles casting with the other 6'6" blank - a loomis spin blank 4 to 10lb - were a result of poorly matched reel to blank... i was using an abu garcia 4600 c ultra cast and trying to pitch 1/4 oz rooster tails on 6lb test line. i sure didn't get far... and of course i was plagued with back lashes. i suppose i could go down to 4lb test...

neither a conventional nor a spiral wrap would have made much difference on such a short blank and the reel/line lure weight i was using...

since, that outfit was for my mate sally, who uses a spin reel i was obliged to shift a single guide on the butt section in order to transform the rod into a spin or levelwind configuration.


Fran i'll try repostioning as you suggest...

thanks for the feed back all!

mforrest

Shouldn't lose any distance with a good spiral wrap. The only way to use less guides is to go to higher frames but that only increases torque and twist if those guides are on top. So that's your dilema. Either using 9 or 10 low frame guides or 6 or 7 high frame guides with a guides on top version. Or probably 7 or 8 guides with a spiral wrap and no torque and no twist.

How far is not very far? Most tests I've done casting a 1/4 oz double willow leaf spinner bait, which should have more wind resistance than a Roostertail, was between 102 and 93 ft depending on the blank I used in a spiral wrap. 6 1/2 and 7 ft blanks.
That's way farther than you could expect to consistently catch fish with stretchy 6 lb line you'd think, unless you're using a tight line presentation and little hooks, but still your pushing it.
You'd have better luck with backlashes I think with less line on the reel, or putting in a tape line stopper under the length line you'd like to be able to cast.

PS - Marc, I re-read my post and didn't mean to come off saying you did it wrong, that was not my intention. I meant it more as an opinion that you should give the spiral wrap another shot and put more emphasis on test casting & setting the rod up spiral before wrapping & finishing the guides...then finding out it doesn't cast well. I see you didn't take it that way, but I'm just aming sure in case someone thinks I'm pompous. lol. WHich I probablly am, but that's another matter, lol again.

no offense taken Billy...

great info from everyone!

100 feet with 1/4 oz spinner! wow... i got nothing like that. i'll try less line, and i think i'll go with the spiral wrap...

like Fran said if you place the guides correctly its just a straight line...

i'll get them all taped on and try some test cast.

thanks all...

marc

Marc, sounds like that first rod was too stiff for the lure weight you tried to use. Think you should have had a UL for 2-4LB line 1/16-1/4 oz lure weight. Bet that other rod works well with about 3/8-1/2 oz lure? Remeber the Lure weight is what you are going to throw. Not the line weight. You may need about 10 guides on this one. Also check to see if under pressure the line does not touch the hand on the fore grip

You can also look at spinning blanks for a casting rod Blank don't know what it is being used for

Marc,
Those above are correct that the line does not know whether it is spiral wrapped or not but it does know friction, torque and angular momentum. To get the max. distance you want the line to have as little contact with the guides as possible and travel in as straight a path as possible. If you can use high frame guides for the first couple of guides and wrap the guides conventionally you will minumize the contact with the guides, minumize the friction as a result of this contact and will also minumize the losses due to the loss in angular momentum. Spiral wrapping is a little like religeon. Some believe and some do not and very few tend to look objectively at the facts.
As far as the number of guides is concerned, you want to use as few and as light weight guides as possible so as to achieve the highest rod efficiency ( sensitivity and feel) and highest resonant frequency possible. I think that you have made a good choice with the single footed guides toward the tip so as to reduce the weight but I would not use more than 7 or at the maximum 8 guides for this 6' 6" rod. I would also wrap with A thread and not use any more epoxy on the guides than absolutely necessary, again to max. efficency and resonant frequency

thanks bill and emory...

bill you're right about that first rod, a loomis S783 -2

i think a 3/8 oz lure will cast much better with the levelwind abu garcia. tho with a light spinning reel mounted i have no doubt that i can cast a 1/4 oz well... i've used levelwinds for most fishing salmon and larger. trying to accomadate light lines and lures with levelwind reels is new territory for me. the tip above about loading less on the reel sounds SPOT ON! also the idea of using tape to stop the spool is kewl.

so much information... so much to deliberate.

indeed that prior blank was not exactly an ultralight.

this one i'm working on is in fact a bit stiffer an All Star

BAST785MS-2

Mag Spinning
6'6"
2
1/4-5/8
8-17
Ex-Fast
Medium
5.0
0.465
2 1/3

i'v got some fish hawk size 3/0 silk thread, finer even than gudebrod A... so that's a plus.

of course this blank bends in the foreward most portion - extra fast.

i reckon i'm going to have to spend a careful bit of time placing the guides for maximum effect. They are extremely light none the less i'll try and use as few as possible. I've also learned the excellent trick of scraping off the excess flex coat with a sliced portion of flexible plastic. In this instance i've allready preped the guides by carefully grinding the feet and polishing them smooth, and finally painting them black with a sharpie.

friction created from guides is a problem. i think i'll tape them on and mount the reel and try casting in hopes of achieving the best possible placement.

thanks all for the excellent advice

marc

Emory - facts, theories, mystery - it's all very easy to come to a concrete conclusion. Wrap the same rod twice, once spiral, once straight, and let a few guys cast them both a few times each, measure the distances, and see what the results are. That will eliminate the religion aspect of spiral wrapping, no? No theories, no assumptions, no Q&A session with the line.

Marc; Looks like you got a fairly stiff blank there. I would suggest tape the guides on, go outside with the lure you want to use and cast away. See if it handles it. Try different weight lures.

Most spiral wrapped rods provide a straighter line path from reel to tip top than those with all the guides on top. Most reel seats allow the reel to drop or indent into the overall rod path. When you place the guides on top of the rod, as is done on the vast majority of conventional rods, the line makes a bit of a "bump" or turn to get back up and stay on top.

How much difference does this make with regard to casting? Not much and you won't find much difference in distance from guides-on-top to spiral, provided both are done well.

In an article Rich Forhan did for RodMaker a few years back, he mentioned that most anglers fish well inside of their rod's maximum casting range anyway (I still like all the distance I can get - you can always shorten up). He has a point. For all practical purposes, a spiral wrapped rod casts as far or farther than a rod with the guides on top, and provides perfect stability under load. There are simply no disadvantages to the spiral wrap, other than the funny looks you may get from un-enlightened anglers.

..............

Thanks everyone for your savvy input.

indeed i shall tape on the guides in the spiral fashion and see what i can accomplish casting about.

currently my stripper guide and the next one up are a no. 12 and 10 respectively. however i may upsize to a no. 16 and 12 in order to reduce any possibility of line slap or friction due to narrow ring size.

in case i haven't mentioned it before here are the guides i'm using

TUNSG 7's and an 8 on the upper section

and TLNSG 12 and 16 on the butt section

[www.shofftackle.com]

as straight a line as possible... hummm...

frankly i keen on trying the spiral wrap.

look for the final photo details of guide placement, wraping etc on my rodblog in the next week or so...

[www.mind.net]

marc forrest

Billy,
I really so not want to get into another discussion about spiral versis conventionally wrapped rods but I think that what you are suggesting would be fun and interesting and the results worth considering but it would not be anything other than anecdotal evidence. It would certainly not be conclusive or as you put it, "concrete, eliminating the assumptions and theories". To arrive at rational conclusion all of the variables would have to be controlled and there are many variables that affect the distance that a rod will cast. For example, the size, weight and positioning of the guides, amount of energy put into the rod during casting, the effect of the reel, etc. Plus a much larger sample size than one would be required to arrive at a rational conclusion.
In addition I think that there are other issues and also trade offs, other than casting distance, when comparing conventional and spiral wrapped rods. In my judgement there advantages and distanvantage to both approaches but that is just my opinion after having thought about it. Even though you may have some anecdotal evidence your opinion is just like mine, just an opinion.

I have not seen any disadvantages to the spiral wrap other than the funny looks and smart comments you may receive. I have heard others talk about so called disadvantages but no one seems to be able to offer any actual real world disadvantages to the spiral wrapping method.

If you set it up nicely you'll find it casts just as far, eliminates the torque on you when fighting a fish and no, it will not damage your rod in the least. Any so called disadvantages are only "ghosts" that no one has actually seen or proven in use. Go right on ahead and enjoy! You'll love it.

Billy --- are you looking to re-run the beach casting tests on a pond? LOL

Emory - any side by side testing with the 2 rods would give 100% better results than theories. You can talk all you want about this and that, Tom K can tell us all he wants about this or that - but the only thing that would matter is the actual differnce in distance between the 2 rods in an actual fishing situation.

I don't want to get into it either, which is why I simply suggested to cat them both and tell us the results, nothing more, nothing less. People can base their own conclusions off of that.

I don't mean to discount one's word here on the boards/magazine's, I just urge people to tkae things one step further for themselves and rather than rely on what someone else tells you, prove things to yourself and see for yourself what is true, and what is not.

Please note I chose my words carefully. "Should", "opinion". Although I believe what I posted to be true, I cannot say 100% for sure that is the case.

And yes, a test casting thing at a pond would be a great idea & a whole lot of fun for all those who participate. MAybe at one of the local gatherings next Spring/Summer that have been popping up around the country this can be done. Anyone got a Turkey FRyer they can loan me? lol.