I read many posts about ceramic guides and the responses are along the same lines, such as:

"much slicker"
"shoots line much farther"
"can't believe the difference"
"I will never use snakes again"

My question, has anyone used two identical fly blanks, wrapping one with ceramic and the other with a good quality snake guide, put the two rods in the hands of an experienced and unbiased distance caster or casters for testing? Of course the definitive test would be to strip the two blanks and reverse the guides and retest to eliminate another possible variable.

If I don't seem completely sold on ceramics, it is because I'm not. Any information out there to convince me?

Regards,

Bill

I'm interested to here if any tests like this have been done as well!

Bill:

About 12 years ago I purchased a 9', 8 wt. Graphite USA blank and a spare tip with it. I made up one tip with ceramic single foot fly guides and the other in snake guides. Over the years, I have used one tip in the morning and the other in the afternoon - mostly while fishing for stripers, shad, or bass.

My arm is not calibrated, but I am an experienced fly fisherman and know the distances I cast. There is a positive difference with the ceramic guides. The cast is smoother and the shoot seems faster. There is greater distance. I inspect the guides following use and cleaning of this rod and there is wear on the snakes, but none on the ceramic rings.

When I am bass fishing, I use only the ceramic ring tip. Actually, I do not use the traditional snake tip at all any more, except for a backup. I really like the casts the ceramic guides give me. Another thing I like is that when set up so that the guides do not allow the line to touch the blank, the distance is greater, due to the lack of line friction against the blank during the cast. Currently, I do not make any fly rod without ceramic ring fly guides, unless specifically requested by a customer.

Please note that I have not given exact improvement. It has not been measured. This is my own assessment based on my own experience. I do hope this assists you to make your own decision.

Doug Weber
Weber Rod Works

Bill, I've built my fly rods with snake guides, with single foot wire guides, and with ceramic guides. I'm not the world's greatest fly caster, for sure. But, I would be in big trouble if that was my criteria for deciding which type of guide to use. I'll be honest, it depends more on my mood and what I think would look best. Not very scientific, but I've talked to enough experienced flyfishers to convince me that the differences in the co-efficient of friction for distance casting are so slight that it is hardly worth arguing about, except when we’re all drinking beer around a campfire, waiting for the next salmon run. As for guide wear, well, I use so many different rods in a typical fishing season that I am positive the guides will last longer than I will. FYI. The current rod I am working on is the GLoomis FR10812-2. I'm using 3 double-foot stripping guides and six Rec-Recoil thin-wire snake guides. I like the look, but I’ve got three sets of ceramic guides sitting on the side, waiting for the right rods. Patrick Vernacchio

I have done this test on a mechanical casting machine, which removed any human element.

Casting distance is marginally improved with quality ceramics. There is not that much friction against the guides, provided they are properly sized and space, on the cast.

But ceramics shine in many more areas, Line retrieve under load is far smoother. Ceramics don't wear out, not ever. They're quieter (this is hard to comprehend until you get used to them and then switch back to a metal guide).

All in all, they offer the benefit on fly rods that they do on casting and spinning rods, which have been devoid of metal ringed guides for nearly 25 years now.

...........

I don't have any documented evedence other than one of the first flyrods I built for myself . 9' SC4 , I used snake guides for the last 8 guides , strippers were #12 , and #10 , 3 #3 , and 5# 2 snakes. The rod cast like any of the other rods that I had used in the past , nothing special . After reading this board , and a lot ot text I did the second rod with SIC SF Fuji running guides , a 5 wt Forcast I built for Bass fishing . I noticed a difference in the smoothness of line retreve , less false casting strokes and not as much noise . I stripped the StCroix of the snakes and used Alconite sf running guides ,a couple of 7s the rest 6s. The 2 things I noticed were #1 , the rod felt lighter( due to my over epoxy on 2 wraps with the snakes ) #2 , Casting was more effortless , quieter and just plain smother........it was like a different rod. I still use wire guides on rods , just single foot, usualy either TI coated , or the REC Recoils on lighter rods. In my oppinion , there is a huge difference.
Some people still like the traditional looks of 2 footed snakes , to each their own , you won't see any on rods I build for my self.
You be the judge, have fun, that's the most important part, John

Additional advantages for ceramics. If you wish to feed a bit of line to extend your drift while fishing the ceramics are definately an improvement over wire. Improved line wear is also a plus for ceramics.

Fly lines definitely last longer on rods with ceramic guides. I used to replace my lines about every 2 or 3 seasons. The last ones I put on have been used on rods with sic guides and they're past 6 years old now and still look like new.

Speaking only for myself and only being a fly caster for a few years now. The main difference I notice is the smoother shooting of the line with ceramics. I don't think the distance is much different but the amount of vibration of the rod as the line runs through the guides is much less to me. Line retreival seems much smoother when fighting a fish on the reel also.

Ron

I read everyone’s comments with great interest, and I doubt Bill is convinced yet. To me it still comes down to personal preference. My favorite big river rod is an Allstar Austin 9’ 9 weight that I built with Fuji TSG guides. I loaned it to a friend who fished it for silvers on Kodiak Island. We had dinner together last night, and I asked him about his impressions. He used it a lot, but only because it was the only 9 weight he had, and he got into some really big fish and big water. As far as the ceramic guides go, he couldn’t have cared less, except that he still hasn’t got used to the look of them. His favorite 8 weight is a Dan Craft Signature V that I made for him, using Recoil RSNX snakes. He's ordering a Winston XTR 9 weight, which as you know comes with plated snake guides. If Sage, Scott or Winston offered rods with ceramic guides, I doubt he would buy one. Probably 90% of the fly fishermen out there feel the same way.

Line wear and guide wear are not important considerations to me. My lines get stepped on, dragged through rocks, sand and gravel, tree limbs and battery acid. I do appreciate the smoothness of ceramic guides, especially on saltwater rods, when a Rooster or Dorado is ripping your line off. But I don’t use ceramics on all my rods.

I may be the only one who cares about guide weight, but I use the Recoil snakes on light line trout rods, and on dry fly trout rods. Recoils are light, and flexible, too. A set of Fuji TSG ceramics (7 x #6, 1x#8, #10 and a #12 stripper), for example, will add approximately 13 grains of weight to a 9’ 6 weight rod, and most of it is toward the tip of the rod, where it will most affect the rod’s efficiency. I like light trout rods, the lighter the better; which brings me back to where I started. It comes down to personal preference.

I appreciate your viewpoint but always wonder how one determines the weight saving effect of a few grains on fly rod guides when casting a line weighing well over 100 grains. I'll continue to use ceramics for their smoothness.

13 grains is over half the difference between a 6 and 7 weight line.

Dan
You make a good point but I don't think I could could tell the difference when I'm fishing. I can tell the difference in the way the line handles however and that means more to me. Fortunately we both have a choice when building a custom rod and that's what "custom" is all about.
Stan

I absolutely agree. One of the reasons I make rods, which I do only for myself and a few friends, is to try different rods and components. I certainly don't do it to save money. I spend entirely too much time and money making rods, and far too little actually fishing them. If I were limited to factory offerings, I could get by with four or five. And I never would have known how great those ceramics are.

I built a 10 1/2' 6 wt. graphite Fenwick fly rod years ago to fish the wide Housatonic river in Ct. I originally outfitted it with snake guides. Altho the rod casted to areas my other rods wouldn't...it still wasn't the rod I was hoping for. I redid the rod with all ceramics (being a traditionalist that wasn't easy). The same rod was casting into all sorts of new pockets. Extremly impressed I went to shooting lines and mono runners and found I could cross the river.
Having just this year broke my favorite 9' 4wt carbonite I've had for years. I am building a 9' sage VPS light as an replacement. Fuji Sic guides will be on it.
Does anyone happen to have an old 4wt carbonite fly rod blank? Lol

Fish Powerpro or any other braid once on a spin rod and you'll understand.

I prefer ceramics if for no other reason than I feel my leader to line connection passes much more easily thru the ceramics vs the standard wire guides and tip top. This past summer I broke the top of my only production rod, a St. Croix SC 4 8'6" 4 wt when my leader to line knot got caught in the standard wire tip top when a fish took a last minute run up close. Using a ceramic tip top, the knot just passes thru it much more easily.