Following a visit to the All Star plant where I saw 50:50 dilution of Flex Coat with isopropyl alcohol for and intial coat of butt wraps and guide windings, I began experienting with various dilutions of Flex Coat and Glass Coat to try to extend working times and better control correction of minor defects such as bubbles, low or high spots,etc. My question to Ralph O'Quinn or others who are expert in the chemistry of these compounds, are:
1) Allowing as much curing time as necessary, does acetone as a diluent have any negative effects on the final product? What about isopropyl alcohol?
2) What is the maximum dilutions with which material that has been used successfully?
3) Are variations in the behavior of specific formulations of epoxy to diluents predictable and consistent, once a dilution mixture is figured out?
4) Are temperature and humidity factors more likely or less likely to affect the cure rates and thoroughness of cure of diluted epoxy?
5) Is there a lot about this subject that we don't really know?
Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

John

I use Glass Coat. In the summer when it was hot, I started to dilut it with medium temperiture lacquer thinner. It will add set up time and when thinned the bubbles disappear

The problem with the introduction of any solvent into a solids epoxy product are that it may not fully evaporate before the epoxy sets, at which point, it cannot exit. At that point, all sorts of problems can rear their head.

This is why acetone is considered one of the better products for thinning of an epoxy - it's very volitile and will usually evaporate long before the epoxy has reached a point where it will no longer allow solvents to escape.

Isopropyl takes a reasonably long time to evaporate. I'm surprised it hasn't caused any problems for All Star, but I won't tell them that what they're doing won't work, if it's obviously working for them.

Beyond that, somebody like Ralph will have to fill you in on any further effects of adding solvents to 100% epoxy products.

That's about all I can tell you. I've never thinned or diluted any epoxy wrapping finish. I mix it, in a plastic cup with a wooden stick, or in a mechanical mixer, apply it with a brush, and walk away from it. I've never heated it, brushed it, or fooled around with it. It cures perfectly smooth with no bubbles. And, I usually do this on days when the rain is pouring down outside. Rainy days, for some reason, are my favorite for apply epoxy.

Everybody has their own method for applying epoxy. As Rich Forhan stated in his article, you have to find a system that works and then stick with it. My own is a study in simplicity. My personal experience has been that the less you do to and with them, the better our epoxy wrapping finishes seem to work.

........

Flec Coat says you can use one drop from a eye dropper to one oz of finish (experment). My resonal experience is i to 2 drops works good for me on hot days. Aceton well give you a longer working life. DO not get zellious and put to much aceton in to the finish, it well not set up.
Good Wraps Bob
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Ask Bill Boettcher. He dilutes everything!!! LOL
Mike

For what it's worth , I tried diluting once , made a mess . Now I use Permagloss for the first 2 coats and then the heavy stuff .

I've used FC for a long time, and never used anything else for a final finish. I know that many factory finishes dilute, and IMO that's why many factory finishes look like @#$%&. Cut the expensive stuff with cheap stuff and you profit but for a price. (why do you think drug dealers mix corn sugar with their crap). If you have bubbles or other anomalies, it isn't the product that caused it. If you use the product correctly, you won't have problems. You don't need thinners or mediums.

In short, there is a lot about finish that we may never know. The variables are endless. But to save a few pennies on a thinner? It's not worth it on an intricate wrap.

John
Don't confuse diluents with solvents. Solvents are not diluents, they are thinners. Diluents are a very necessary and legal part of the formulating game, Thinners are legal only when formulating a paint. Our epoxy thread finishes are not paints, they are casting resins. You cannot make a paint out of a casting resin without sacrificing something in return. The casting resin was formulated for a particular purpose. A specific resin was chosen to be compatible with a specific type of amine compound which was modified to meet the formulators goals. So someone now comes along and adds a solvent---what does this doe to the original intent and purpose that the formulator had in mind. Obviously it changes the chemistry, which changes things like cure time which in turn effects adhesion, light stability, and toughness. The simple act of adding a solvent can change the end product to such a degree that it will not function as the formulator intended.

I cannot speak for flexcoat, but if you ever use any of the LS Supreme products, you will notice we tell you DO NOT ADD A SOLVENT.

Ralph

Mike, I am an old car painter and find that things flow and penitrate better when thin - with in reason. Go over board and ya do mess things up. Plus I'm cheap. I get more out of Glass Coat. Also got no bubble problems. Also get more controll on how fast or slow some thing sets up. Guess that's a controll thing??!! When I painted cars I always tried to get that last coat to flow so I would cut down on wet sanding and compounding, hated to compound, that stuff would shoot all over every thing

Still am wondering if I can put a " flame " job on a rod??? HHUUUMMMM?? Got to try it on a thicker saltwater

Just kiddin' ya, Bill!!

Mike

I know Mike. Just wanted to explain why I do what I do. And that it works. Still wonder about the flames??

I also wonder why it won't work if people do it -- and it works with no problems? Like a company like Alstar. I am sure if it caused any problems they would not sell blanks and do it

John, and other's....
For what it's worth. I build roughly 1500 to 1800 rods every year. I'm not sure if that's many or few compared to you guys. I use the thinning method everyday. However, I use it only for first coat applications. Every rod I make get two coats of finish. The second coat is always full strength. The first coat goes on much faster and thus I get more rods out of each batch of (thinned) finish. The bubble factor is reduced greatly. The finish is thinner, therefore, penatrates the thread better and grabs onto the blank for better bonding of the guides and thread to the blank. These "first coat" rods sit for 24 hours to make sure the Acetone (which is my thinner of choice, alcohol doesn't evaporate quickly enough) evaporates and the epoxy has adequate time to cure, before applying the second coat. This also gives me a chance to cut off any spikes of thread with an exacto blade before applying the second coat. Since the second coat is covering an already cured coat- it goes on smooth and fast. In addition, the air bubbles that pop up from the threads are no longer there. Makes for a really nice clean finish. I use the mixing cups from Flex Coat. I measure: 2 drams of B, 2 drams of A in that order. Mix my batch of finish, then I add just less than 1 dram of Acetone to the mixed batch, and re-mix it all together. Afterwards I pour it onto some Aluminum foil molded over a plastic 6" picnic plate. When I'm done finishing the rods, I tossed the foil and reuse the same plate. Also, I use Flex Coat high build finish for my rods. I am not sure if this method will work for other company's epoxy finishes. I hope this post didn't wear out my welcome on this board, as this is my first post. I think this is a great site and will visit it in the future. One more thing, I would try this method on a scrap piece of blank before trying on a rod for sale or use. In case of a mishap! Take care everyone.
Sidney

I know my method is mostly rejected, but I will state it again. I put on a sealer coat of hi build Flex Coat mixed 50/50 with MEK. I follow that (after 24 hours), wilth one coat of full strength high build Flex Coat. I learned this from Sage. My finishes are excellent as are Sage's. I agree with Sidney, except I use MEK, which does not evaporate quite as fast and is the standard epoxy thinning agent used in most industries, in fact I don't know it it has any other use. John Butterfield