When you're building a rod for a "client" do you guys let them have any input on the number of guides to be used? Prime example: I'm building a spin casting rod and when I put it under a load I'm leaning toward using single foot guides for the last 4 give or take. From my perspective it would save on weight and also let me get a better line flow. But the "client" is wary of single foot guides even after he's told of the new tying methods and that being near the tip section they would be setting low.

Sammy I use all the imput my client can give me. Then I suggest a design that would do what he wants. When there is a drastic change I usual have a rod to demonstrate my idea. As for single foot guide. I have a 8 ft. Sturgeon rod with single ft. guides on it and I have yet to loose a guide.
Bob

No, no, no. You are the expert. Let him pick the length and power and what brand of blank he wants, but he needs to leave the building to you. What do you think will happen if you go into your auto mechanics shop and tell him how to fix your car? Do you help the cook at your local restuarant when you order a meal, telling him how to prepare each dish? I doubt it.

If your customer knows so much then he should build his own rod. No one likes to lose a sale but in some cases it is the wise thing to do. If you know what your customer wants done will not hurt the rod, then you might do it without any harm. But again, you are the expert in this situation.

What does the word custom mean?

Who are you building the rod for? You or the customer?

Who is going to be using the rod? You or the customer?

Who is paying for the rod? You or the customer?

Who's fault is it if you build it your way and it turns out not being what the customer wanted? Yours or the customers?

Are you going to give the customer his money back if he doesn't like the way you built the rod?

I could go on but you get the drift.

Most people take in information, suggestions and other opinions, process the information and determine what THEY WANT TO BUY.

If you do not want to provide them with what they want you can tell them to take a hike or you can build the rod their way after giving your opinion. It is your decision.

Remember all of the items that you wanted to made just for you, the way you wanted them made.

You give the best advice based on your knowledge. It helps alot to have rods you have built that display your ideas. Nine times out of ten the customer will take your advice. Sometimes they just have to have somthing, or want a particular thing you don't agree with. You have to handle each situation as it rises. Who is the client? A repeat customer, first timer, owned custom rods in the past? Does what he want going to ruin the way the rod will preform? I think you have to give AND take, alittle. If what he wants is that detrimental to the finished rod, tell'em NO, even if they walk. If it is a compromise you can live with, then make the customer happy. Alot depends on the personality of the client. I do not have a "blanket policy" of it's my way or the highway. Maybe he will come back and order another rod, if he was happy with this one. Next time he might say go ahead and put the guides on you recommend. That's what I call building trust.

Bill Doherty

Customer input is essential, but I tend to go along with Mike Ballard about the building part. I have on one occasion, on the request of the customer, added an extra guide near the tip and it worked to both our advantage after the input resulted in the what the customer intended the rod for, and it did not result much in loss of casting performance.

If the customer is to dictate the guide number and placement, I believe it defeats the purpose for the custom rod builder. You should attempt to convince the customer why you feel the guide number and placement should be kept to your 'expertise', but allow them choices in guide types and take into consideration what they tell you about the rod expectations.

If the client is wary of single foot guides, perhaps also the blank chosen is not the right one for their expectations?? Give reasons as to why components match up under better placement as you are the rodbuilder to do this. If the rod is a levelwind (baitcaster), perhaps the spiral configuration is best for them and convincing can be difficult , but if they bite, then the guides end up at an advantageous position for line flow, and also easier justify the use of single foot guides.
Single foot guides have plenty of strength, but I also agree to match the size to the blank, line, and the use of terminal tackle. For example, ring size big enough to accomodate a shock leader if necessary, but small enough to reduce weight as much as possible.
I would better opt for a decent ring material , and thinking about corrosion resistant frames for the guides to distract the client into accepting reasons you think that single foots are adequate.

my 2 cents lecture.

Rich
Solyrich Custom Rods

What happens if a customer chooses a blank that you do not agree with?

What happens if the power of the blank is not what you think is optimum for the type of fishing he is doing?

What happens if he wants it longer that you think it should be for his fishing style?

What happens if he wants a 12" grip and you think it should be only 10"? He wants a spinning reel seat on a casting rod? He wants a 10" front grip on 6' rod?

How are you going to counter a perfectly good reason for why the customer wants 6 double foot guides rather than 9 single foot other than based on YOUR experience, the singles work better? In his experience and for his fishing style, the double foot guides may be more to his liking.

If you choose every component in the rod and then tell the customer how you are going to build it, the only thing left for the customer to do is choose the color of the wraps. What happens if you don't think the colors are the proper ones to use on that rod?

If you don't allow the customer any more leeway than some of the posts above indicate, you are essentially building a rod that YOU like to fish with and selling it to him. You may be an expert on how to build a rod but the customer is the expert on what HE wants. An inexperienced customer obviously needs as much advice as you can give him and he will probably wear you out with questions. Experienced fishermen that buy a custom rod know what THEY want and how THEY fish and how THEY plan on using the rod. They just don't want to build it or have the time or experience to do so.

Any of you that turn down customers because they want a rod that you don't want to build send them my way. Because, my definition of a CUSTOM rod is a "rod built to the customers specifications after receiving information and opinions of the builder".

Nuff said.

I agree with Mike. When I built my house, I knew a great deal about the specifications I wanted. The builder agreed and like my input. As we went along, he made a few suggestions, but with all the money spent on the house, I got it my way, and we were both happy. If the customer shows very little knowledge, and just wants to be a pin in the ass, then tell him to go somewhere else, but if there is good rapport, with both having knowledge of what is good for the rod, it will work.
I know that the fishing in Michigan is different than the fishing in Cape Cod. I build rods, but if I want someone in Michigan to build me a rod, I will provide the specs, and that must be respected.
Sanford Hochman

In my opinion... I think the customer needs to be educated first. Then, if they still insist, do what they want. Maybe they will realize later that you were right all along and come back for a second rod done right.

Sammy,

I have quite a bit of experience in this type of thing - perhaps more than most. Which way you go has much to do with the type custom business you will end up with, and the particular clientele you will attract. It will also determine whether your work will be valued for your knowledge and expertise, or whether you will simply be seen as a journeyman assembler of parts - doing someone anyone can co. The latter is where most custom rod builders fall, although many would prefer not to be there.

There is a great danger in giving the customer "what he wants" and I will have an article to that effect in the next issue of RodMaker.

In the meantime, there is an easy way out for you. Tell your customer that you are going to make him an offer which he cannot refuse. Have him allow you to wrap the rod the way you want to and then tell him that if he fishes with it for 90 days and does not like it - you will rewrap it the way he wanted to begin with and at no extra charge to him.

I once had an order for 16 live bait rods. I really pushed the spiral wrap on the customer but he could not bring himself to accept it. So I made him the offer he could not refuse - I wrapped one in spiral wrap fashion and the rest conventional. I told him I would rewrap the spiral job to conventional if he did not like it after using it for a few weeks at no charge to him. But, I told him if he did like it, and wanted the others wrapped in spiral fashion, he would have to pay me to rewrap the other rods. He laughed and told me he'd be back to have the spiral wrapped rod redone at my expense.

One month later to the day, he returned and paid me to rewrap all the other rods in spiral wrap fashion. He never again questioned my advice on his rods. He told me what he needed the rods to do and allowed me to provide him with the best tool for the job. He also paid top dollar for all his rods and was glad to do so. He was convinced I knew more about rods than he did.

.........................

In answer to Mike Bolts's post above (Mike and I know each other and argue good naturedly quite a bit) - Well, I did turn down those type of customers and was happy to do so. That is also why I had more business and orders than I could possibly fill. I know that sounds strange, but it ultimately works out that way. Building a rod in a manner you know will not best serve the customer's interest will come back to haunt you and will result in more lost sales than you can imagine.

I know it is hard for most custom rod builders to turn down a job - to send a potential customer away. But in the long run, it is sometimes the wisest thing you can do.

I'll have more on this in some articles from myself and some of the staff writers in RodMaker this year.

.............

You got to go with the old beer comercial,"Know when to say no"
John

My real life job is being a software consultant/contractor. In that job the situation you describe is one I run into all the time. What I have found to be the best approach is as follows:

1) Explain to the customer that your approach is better and why it is better. Showing your belief in it with something like Tom's 'offer that can't be refused' will strengthen your position. As "the expert" your primary responsibility is to give the customer the full benefit of your knowledge, building the product is secondary.

2) If the customer insists on having it their way, and that way is ok but may not be optimal, go with it. If you have fulfilled your primary responsibility, then the customer is fully aware of the choices they have made and the resulting product is one that won't reflect poorly on you.

3) If the customer insists on having it their way, and that way will not work or is no better than what is commercially available, then turn down the job. Do not be afraid to tell a prosective customer something like "If thats what you want then buy it at Walmart. It will perform the same as what you want me to build and cost you a lot less". Believe it or not, this is the best thing you can do for a couple of reasons: 1) You don't become associated with trash products so your reputation is protected. 2) Because of your honesty, trust in you and your expertise is increased which results in more business and allows you to charge higher rates.

Hope this helps!
Dave

Hey John Britt,
How about the song by Kenny Roger's might go along with the beer commercial.
If you can't see the concept to work and can't convince (educate) the customer, then perhaps is a time to 'fold em' or do the guarantee thing as Tom K. suggested.

It can be a tough call at times to satisfy a particular request, but also it just shows there is more to a custom rodbuilding shop than just nodding okay to every customer idea. My belief is that they will come to respect and expect the service of your expertise. I rarely make a rod for a customer that would personally suit me, as I am not the end user for fit or their particular technique. A customer is not the builder, even though we both may have fishing interests. Why not think of the word "custom..." in association with "customer". Give options and educate about why you think it could work better, and my belief is that is what most customers would like to know. It's a process that goes along with the business.

Not to bicker, but I DO believe in giving the customer much leeway (as much as possible for their expectations). Also, the thing about experienced fishermen. Sure, I hear it all the time. "I know what I want". But how will they know if you don't show or explain the options in rodbuilding. You would be very surprised how many long term professional fishermen (they know it ALL), in my area are amazed when they get a custom rod compared to what they thought could not be improved upon. We don't tell them we know more about fishing, just that we know how to make a better rod!
As the sign in the shop gives a list of Fees for "fishing answers". Those requiring thought cost more than right or wrong answers, but Dumb looks are still Free. (tongue in cheek, of course).
We are suppose to know about the 'better' answers in conjunction with the tool of fishing rods to make the fishing experience more purposeful.

Also, about choosing the blank. Most customers may choose what they like and would not choose the sizing of guides, for instance. I find, more often than not, that given the wide choice of blanks available, many customers will go with options that you present among those you feel would fit the situation based on your past experience and expertise about the materials and differences. Also, the specs. should mean something in conjunction with their choosing. This you can readily explain and narrow down within reason for the customers interests, without choosing the blank that you may personally like.

Rich

I build rods on the side, but my main job is web design. They are very similar in that each cutomer is different. Some do know quite a bit about what they want and either lack the skill or time to build it (the rod or web site). I do my best to suggest what is I think the right choices are, but when it comes down to it the customer is paying the money and they get the final decision. I will simply tell them that I disagree with their desision and warn them that it might not come out the way that the want but I will still do it their way if they still want it. I will not get in a fight over it and lose the job, I just make sure that it is understood that I am not responsible for the resulting problems from their choices.

Please allow me to play devil's advocate for moment. Let's suppose I asked you to design and lay out a site for me. And my ideas for that site are so poor that you know it would look bad and wouldn't do what I needed it to do. But I demanded that you deliver exactly what I wanted. So you do.

Then, the site is an utter failure. Would it bother you if I told everyone that you had set up the site for me? They won't know you and won't have any way of knowing that you told me that my ideas were not good, but they will know from me that you set up the site.


My point is that whatever you deliver to the customer, even if it is terrible but exactly what he wanted, is still your business card to all the other potential rod customers out there. Just some food for thought.

Getlemen, thank you for your varied opinoins and advice. I believe though that I'll give Tom's option a shot. Thanks agian!

This is a great point of view and I am inclined to change my mind. However if the client doesn't see the light after the product is built then you may be stuck redoing it, or loses the money. It is a really tough choice and I guess we all just have to hope that we don't have to make it.

and beginning to think I was doomed then read your post. I have been making the 90-day guarantee on my rods and have yet to buy one back. I will send a potential customer to a rod assembler before letting them dictate how to build their rod. They came to me for a professional built designer bass rod and that’s what I intend to provide, my way. However, I do make minor compromises in handle length and or balancing. I don't even allow many choices on blanks. Reason being, if the wrong blank is used for a particular technique, the customer will blame the Revolver Style when in fact the blank choice is where the failure resides. So I choose the blank for the intended bass fishing technique or they go elsewhere. Am I too stubborn to make a living at this?LOL

Let me get this right Tharpe. A rod builder that builds a rod taking ANYTHING into consideration that a customer wants is a "rod assember"?

You don't let the customer have anything to say about the rod. That means at some point in time your famous rods were designed by you, built by you and you offered your 'desginer rods' for sale.

Now, am I supposed to believe that having a standard design, ordering the same parts and putting them together the same way every time is not "assembling"? Give me a break. You are doing no more than a factory does when they design a rod, order all the same parts and build them the same way. Of course I guess you could say that you custom designed your rods for you which would be technically a custom designed rod.

Most of this discussion had merits both ways until the term "rod assembler" was injected. Now it has hit rock bottom.

Each to his own. Nuff said.