I had a rod builder make for me on a green Rainshadow blank an 8' 4 wt 3 piece rod. No expense was spared, including diamond wraps and ceramic guides.

The rod is beautiful but casts like a dog. Marked a 4 wt, it does OK as a 5 wt.

Could the unresponsiveness be the result of the ceramic guides and their weight? The guides are single foot ceramic, and the green nylon thread is tipped with metallic thread. The guides are covered with a heavy coat of Flex Cote orginial formula.

I guess I should say the rod casts like a dog compared to my Loomis GL3 8' 3 piece 4 wt. Could it just be the difference in blank manufacturers?

If I replaced the ceramic guides with plain single foot guides and used Flex Coat Light, would that make the rod lighter and more responsive?

Thanks,

Bill

The guides have nothing to do with it. If they were heavy and undermining the efficiency of the rod, you'd have to drop down in line size, not up, to get things to work. Let's get that out of the way.

Now we're back to what, exactly, is a 4-weight rod? It should be, according to the only standards we have (AFTMA), a rod that loads optimumly with 30 feet of a 4-weight line out past the tip. But as we all know, there are no standards in fly rod manufacturing other than the subjective ratings that the manufacturers use for themselves. I can assure you that your Loomis 4-weight has a different intrinsic power than your Rainshadow 4-weight does. They both say "4-weight" but this means next to nothing when used for comparitive purposes. By Loomis' standards, your Rainshadow may be a 5-weight rod, or even a 6-weight rod.

You mention that it casts okay with a 5-weight line. That should tell you something. How much line do you usually hold past the tip when you cast? 20 feet? 30 feet? 50 feet? The weight you put on the rod varies by how much of it you have past the tip. In the Common Cents System, a rod which you might call a standard 4-weight (ERN 4.5) would require 120 grains of weight to fully load. If your rod requires more than that, then you've got to put a heavier line on it, or more of that same 4-weight line in order to get it to load for you.

If someone has that blank and could provide us with the CC ERN for it, and you can tell us what general distance you're fishing, we can tell you exactly what line to put on it to make it come "alive" for you.

This is the exact problem that the fly rod industry has created by not adhereing to some sort of rating standard. I hope some involved will see your post and take it to heart.

...................

Bill,

You would not be able to notice the difference by changing the guides and epoxy; it just does not add up to enough weight to count.

Depending on how the guide spacing was performed, and if you are getting line slapping or restricted line movement through the guides, you might possibly be able to improve things by changing that around.

More than likely you are just used to the feel of your Loomis and the action of the Rainshadow just "feels" different to you.

Additionally, the power of the rods may be very different, even though they are both labelled 4-weights. You might search the site for "common cents" and "CC" to get an idea about how to measure the power of the rod. At the same time you are performing these simple measurements, you can check to see if the line runs well through the guides with a static deflection test.

Lastly, tell the builder what you are feeling and let him or her have a crack of explaining and/or fixing the problem for you.

Brian

Bill; If you have a 6 line try it. If you cast several lines and the performence is not good, bring it back like suggested and let the builder check it out. Also maybe that rod blank is not for you, action etc.

That's the problem with fly blanks. Every 4 or 5 weight or whatever other number you have will be different. You can't compare 4 weight blanks because they all have a different amount of stiffness even though they shouldn't. It's time to ask the blank and rod manufacturers to adhere to some kind of straight standard for using these numbers.

If a company puts the number 4 on a rod, then it should have a certain amount of power and all 4 weights should be the same. They could rate it for use with 4 weight lines with 30 past the tip or any other distance just as well if they will just decide what the standard will be and then all stick to it.

Bill, I just checked a Rainshadow IF-804 -3 blank with a grip, tip-top and no guides or reel seat. Will be building it with alconites. Mine has an AA of 67 and with 30 cents to 28" of deflection, an ERN of 3.42.

You may want to step down to a 3 for your rod. Looks like this rod will be a fast 3 weight for long casts or about right if you used a GPX or other overweighted #3 line.

Deflection amount should be 32 inches for an 8' rod

It DEFINATELY isn't the guides that is causing the problems for you.

I have ceramics on 3 of my Loomis IMX rods that I built and single foot wire guides on one of my factory Loomis IMX's as well as a factory GLX.There is no comparison between them and ceramics will from now on,go on ALL of my personal rods from 5wt up.I "might" use snakes or single foot wire for a short trout rod to make the most cosmetically appealing rod and go betterl with the nickle silver and exotic burl wood

The ceramics are far slicker and quieter,while they also add distance for me and improve line wear.I can't notice any difference at all between the wire and the ceramics when it comes to responsiveness or how lively the blanks feel,I only see positive differences with the rods that I used ceramics on.

The only possible down side to ceramics is their cosmetic appeal.

Ceramics may not quite be as nice looking to some people as wire single foot or snakes on a fly rod(although the TiCH colored ceramics with TiCH coated frames,as well those with the the blue or holographic zirconia rings are all incredible looking).

I'd say your situation has to do with the blank and that it may be either a different action from what you are use to and may not be quite as light or fast in recovery(although I honestly don't know how your particular Rainshadow model compares to the GL3 here) or it may be not quite true to it's line rating for the distances you are casting it at.Cast the heavier,less responsive,or slower blank(if that is even the case) would mean that you would have to make some adjustmemts in your casting stroke and it would take a little time to get use to it.

I would definately follow the other's advice and try out some various flylines from 3-6wt,as well as change some things in your caasting stroke if you have to,and see if any really change things dramaticly for you.

Also,how much does the finished rod weigh compared to the Loomis?

Loomis' better rods tend to be among the lightest and most responsive on the market and that plays a big part in their appeal to anglers.Often their rods feel a line weight or sometimes 2 lighter than the competions in regards to actual rod weight,while still being true(some models may obviously not be though) to their rated line weights(something I can verify when I compared many new 9-10ft 8-9wt model blanks and ended up choosing the 10ft 9wt GLX.At a mere 3.85 ounces it weighs less than many of the competition's 9ft 8wts and even a few 7wts).

In fact,I just sold a 9ft 4pc 5wt ECHO that was more like a 7wt or very fast 6wt(it cast best with a 6wt SA GPX or 7wt lines and would only be a 5wt for casters like Steve Rajeff and his Brother Tim who developed it.).The ECHO 9ft 5wt weighed 4.1 ounces!That's a "rated 5wt" that weighs more than my 10ft 9wt!LOL.

The ECHO was a CANNON with a heavier line and shooting heads though and if blanks ever are available,I'll be grabbing one for sure to build up a light saltwater 6wt bonefish/pink salmon/BIG trout rod that would give ANY $600+ saltwater rod a run for the money in casting performance.

I have built rods on both those blanks. The GL3 804-3 has snakes and the Rainshadow IF804-3 has single ft wire guides. Assembled the GL3 804-3 has an ERN of 3.57 (31 cents) and the Rainshadow IF804-3 has an ERN of 4.46 (37 cents). For small rivers where I am casting mostly 15-30 feet I fish the GL3 with a DT4 and the Rainshadow with a DT 5 wt line.