I'm building a couple of spinning rods for drum fishing and could use some help with the reduction guides. The blanks are the NFC Neos, both the x-ray808 and the x-ray 765. They'll have a 5000 reel with 30lb braid and most of the fish are in the 40 lb class. I'll be using fuji kw guides. On the 808 I'm thinking of using #8 runners and #6 runners on the lighter 756. I think I should start off with a 25h butt guide but I really don't have a clue about spinning rod reduction guide sizes having always used conventional rods. Can I get a little help on this project please?

This should help - [www.rodbuilding.org]

As far as your running guides, make sure they remain large enough to pass any knots or connections you're going to be using. Anything that has to pass through the guides on the cast needs to be accommodated.

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Are you using straight braid or braid to leader? If your using a leader what size? Is the reel a Shimano 5000 or Diawa 5000 or something else? Diawa 5000 is much larger than a Shimano 5000.

Michael I'll be using a 40-50 lb leader on a Shimano Spheros 5000. The spool has a 2" dia. When I look at the tutorial on Anglers Rsrc it doesn't seem to cover a rod using braid heavier than 20 lb.

Reference the link Tom gave you, the size of your reel and line used is of no concern using the New Guide Concept that later evolved into the GPS system for lighter line use.

I’d use 25H, 12H, and 7L followed by seven to eight size 6 running guides. This is also what the KR calculator recommends for a 7’9” rod, with shaft tip at 13”, and 14-17lb mono. If you want to force the calculator to select a 25 size guide you have to go with the mono input. This makes sense with your example as you are using heavier braid. This setup jives with sizing up a build I did with a 20 butt guide. Those running guides will pass a well tied Alberto knot with 17lb fluorocarbon leader. I pass Alberto’s with 15lb fluorocarbon through size 5 runners with good casting distances. I would think 20lb fluorocarbon knots would also pass through the size 6 runners.

I’m adding one to two additional running guides beyond the six recommended by the KR software as experience leads me to believe this works better for casting and following curvature under loading. The Rainshadow spinning rod build sheets use even a couple of more running guides. I’m finding a median between the two works very well.


[anglersresource.net]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2023 12:23AM by Kendall Cikanek.

Kendall gives a very good recommendation for a single foot KR concept setup. Here is a Fuji article on KR reduction guide groups.
[anglersresource.net]

If you want to use double foot KW guides in a NGC setup, here is an article on KW reduction guide groups written by the late Jim Ising.
[anglersresource.net]

There is also the option of using Fuji KL single foot reduction guides in a NGC concept. You can also use KW and KL guides together if you wish. For example, KW30, KL20, KL12 to KT runners.

If you want to use single foot guides the KR concept will work great. If you want a double foot KR concept you will need to use the Fuji RV guides coupled with KW guides. You can also use a double foot RV butt guide with single ft KL-H guides and KT/KB runners. However, the RV guides only come in titanium frames and thus are very expensive. For double foot or single foot NGC setups can use KW or KL reduction guides with KW or KT/KB running guides.

A lot of options out there.

Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2023 09:57AM by Norman Miller.

Let me put up some pictures for you!

Eliminate the size 30 and add a couple more 10 runners.

New guide concept doesn’t go above a 25# leader unless you keep the knot outside of the tip-top.

If your 40# leader will pass through the guides you should forget about the KT’s and do all double foot KW’s like the diagram shows. The size 10 double foots will reduce the chance of getting knocked out of the wraps when the connection knot hits the guide.

According to Norman’s link to Jims KW info, Jim says to stick with the 30 butt when using heavy braid.

I’ve not encountered the use of 40-50lb leaders on 30lb braid. I’ve seen heavier leaders used for toothy fish and lighter leaders used for everything else. From what I remember about the teeth in the jaw and those in the throat of drum, this line/leader choice isn’t inherent to me. I’m not doubting as much as trying to understand as my instinct would be to use almost an inverse setup to prevent breaking the main line. I never want to break the main line instead of the leader. Single footed guides are commonly used with 30lb braid in more standard line setups.

Thanks everyone for the replies,
they certainly pointed me in the right direction. Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you guys. Something came up and we had to go out to Duke and see a guy about an ablation . I lofted out the Neo 808 and it looks like a reduction train using kw 30, kw 25, kw 20, kw 12 and then 5 kw 8's for running guides. A four guide reduction train seems to be one more than the norm but it certainly seemed to fit nicely. I noticed Fuji sells that same reduction package as a kit so it must work out well. For the Neo 765 I'd like to go a little lighter on the guide but use the same reel and line. I'm thinking of about trying a kw 25,20,12 reduction kw 7 choker and then kb 7 runners. Norm I saw where you mentioned in a recent reply having built several casting rods using a Neo 765. By chance have you used the same blank as a spinning rod with this guide configuration or something similar? Kendall we use heaver leaders for handling the fish at the boat. Usually I just take a wrap on the leader and lean down and unhook the fish without bringing it in the boat. My preference would be 6ft of 80 but that's probably history with smaller guides.

I haven’t built the Neo 765 as a spinning rod. However, if I were to using a 5000 reel with 30 lb braid and a 30 lb mono/fluoro leader with a 5000 reel, I can think of two options I might seriously consider. I first one would be a Single foot KR guide train with a KL25h, KL12H, and KL7M for the reduction train followed by KB/KT6 or KB/KT5.5 runners and a matching tip top. The second one would be a NGC guide train with a KW30L, KW20, and KW12 followed by double foot KW8 or KW6, or single foot KT8, or KB/KT6 runners and a matching tip top. For a leader to braid knot I would certainly use the FG knot. It is a very thin and strong knot that will easily pass through any size runner or tip top you want to use.
Norm.

You can see fairly different fishing preferences in this thread. This shows the value of building your own rods rather than just settling on what factories specify to meet the expectations they’ve previously created. Drum are a plentiful and durable fish and I very much enjoy a well orchestrated netting. I’d probably never go with a heavier line and rod setup to do a leader wrap and water release. Also, seals frequently grab catches from the hands of surprised anglers in some of the places where I like to fish. I’m not going to mix in a landing technique that isn’t safe everywhere I fish. Roger’s preferences where he employs them are just as valid and correct as mine, however. It’s obviously safe and convenient there. He can build exactly to his methods and have the necessary durability.

Spent the afternoon reading up on guides using the search engine until I became the latest convert to the KR concept. KL25H, KL12H and KL7M it is with KB/KT7 runners to give me a chance at using that 80 lb leader. :-) One quick question. Should I bump the KL7M up to a KL8M so there is a "step down" to a #7 runner or is the KL7M a better fit to end the reduction train? Norman I stoped by the local tackle shop last week to put some line on a little Curado 70 I bought for a NFC 733-1 I recently built with KB5/KT5's on it. The shop owner commented about the size of the guides and the leader knot (sounding just like me not too long ago!). I tied a piece of 20 mono to the 20 braid with an FG knot and made the statement that this is the end of leader to braid knot development, it just can't get any better. BTW if that Neo 765 seems a little odd for a big drum rod I choose it to use for a fairly new technique up here of throwing a popping cork around bait schools for the drum. I find the cork to be a hateful thing to throw using a conventional reel. Hopefully that rod and the cork will be a good match.
Thanks everyone for your help.