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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 16, 2022 08:25PM

Michael, I'm curious? Did you read any of the posts in the thread I linked? If so, you surely saw this post authored by you.

"If you use the TNF process you can measure quite closely how much what you are doing to the blank affects its recovery speed when built into a rod. From my data, I think you will be surprised how little what you do low on the rod affects it. As Tom suggests"

It's the fourth post to the thread, and clearly mentions TNF. I drew my conclusion and mentioned what you found, based on your own post. If I did so improperly because I misinterpreted your use of the word "it" to mean the TNF of a rod, then my sincere apology. In my defense, I think our little exchange immediately following the quoted post had an influence on the aforementioned conclusion being drawn.

And you're absolutely right when you guessed that I have never done any TNF testing. It's interesting to me, but as I have made clear in this and other threads. It;s a bench test. And while I agree with your earlier post that bench tests can accurately predict product performance, I am sure you know by now..... I'm a "feel" guy.

Anyhow.... once again, my apologies if I drew an inappropriate conclusion. I think it is at least understandable, when you consider that you and I seem to be on totally the opposite sides of the fence when the topic of adding weight to balance a rod, comes up.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 06:30AM

Yes, I read some of the posts, including that one. . And no apologies necessary.

You interpreted "it" correctly, but I had not added weight to the butt to come to that conclusion. I was speaking of the weight of the reduction train on Xfast action blanks. On some blanks one can use SS or titanium reductioin guides and get the same TNF, but that is not true regarding running guides. Titanium running guides always give a higher TNF. Does that higher TNF result in more sensitivity? I don't know. When we get the sensitivometer invented we will know. My conclusion after testing a lot of blanks and rods for TNF and fishing them is that it's a pretty good indicator of sensitivity. It is a direct measure of the recovery speed of a blank/rod.

I have not added weight to the butt and checked its effect on TNF either. As Norman suggests, the nature of the process, the mounting of the blank/rod, makes it pretty clear that weight added to the butt will not affect TNF. So does adding weight to the butt of the rod affect sensitivity? I don't know. If one likes it, fine. What works for them works for them. For me, looking to adjust the balance, I'll look for a lighter reel.

The work on TNF and the effect of weight on the running guides on TNF leads one to the possibility of using SS for the reduction guides (where the cost of titanium is the highest per guide) and titanium for the running guides. With modern micros being so small the mismatch of finish between titanium and SS is insignificant. And saving significant money is possible while retaining higher performance. . I doubt if the weight of running guides is insignificant with regard to TNF on moderate action blanks, but I don't know, not having built and tested any since coming up with TNF. By the way, on at least some blanks, TNF can see the difference between SS and titanium tiptops.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 06:30AM

Oops!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2022 06:32AM by Michael Danek.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 07:40AM

A fishing rod does not sense anymore than the line..my nephew were fishing one eight chatter baits..he could not feel the chatter until the lure was half way in with his graphite rod and mono line...I was using one of my bow and arrow glass rods with ten pound braided line and could feel chatter for the full cast..sensitivity comes from the line not the rod..jmex.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2022 07:46AM by ben belote.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 17, 2022 09:06AM

ben b. - Right you are! The rod can't be any more sensitive than the line that connects it to the movement, and the least bit of slack at Any point in the line eliminates All sensitivity.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 09:13AM

Michael, isn,t any additional weight attached to any part of a rod going to change it,s frequency?.There are people on this site that add as much as three ounces to achieve a balanced rod..that,s the weight of an additional rod..All they need to do is change their grip by moving it forward just a bit, Oh, they don't have a foregrip so they have to add weight, amazing! Lol..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2022 10:03AM by ben belote.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 17, 2022 12:48PM

I have been exercising recently. Should I add weight to my fishing poles to change their frequency to compensate for the increased torque being applied to them? Is there a bench test to help me decide? I dislike testing my fishing poles near water.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 03:24PM

Unfortunately those size 4.5 and 5 runners in titanium torzite cost $8.00 - $10.00 a piece .

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 17, 2022 04:42PM

ben, you're happy with the sensitivity of fiberglass blanks because you use braided line. Have you ever fished a high end blank that is known for its' sensitivity, and used braided line on it? If you have, then you know how much more you can feel with a higher modulus graphite rod, versus the fiberglass rods you love so much.

Of course everyone would have to agree that the line is the first and even the most important consideration in how much information reaches the rod. You can't feel what the line doesn't transmit. But you like braided line. Not everyone does. Do you like braided line simply for its' sensitivity? Or are there also other reasons you like it? In your opinion does braided line eliminate the need for any other type of line, other than line needed for a leader when using braided line? Do you even use a leader when using braided line?

Not everyone likes braided line, Some of us only use it when its' attributes make it advantageous to do so. For me personally, the sensitivity that braided line displays is not the reason I use it. Honestly, it's not even a consideration for me. For me, using braided line is about hook setting and fish moving power. For me it's a heavy cover line, and that's pretty much it.

I will occasionally switch out a reel with braid on it to my Carolina rig rod. But that's only because at times I want to use a 20# fluorocarbon leader, and I need a main line with a much higher breaking strength than the leader.

And ben, because we don't have a fore grip, we don't have to add as much weight LOL

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 06:07PM

"sensitivity comes from the line not the rod..jmex." In my opinion, it comes from both the line and the rod. I agree that if someone is fishing mono and wants the biggest improvement in sensitivity, change to braid. Will make more difference than the rod.

But for those of us who want the ulitmate sensitivity, it will not come from using glass rods. It will come from graphite rods AND braid.


"Michael, isn,t any additional weight attached to any part of a rod going to change it,s frequency?." No. I have found with Xfast action blanks that the difference between SS reduction guides and titanium reduction guides does not affect TNF. Adding any weight to the outer sections of the rod will affect TNF. I have not tested adding balance weight to the butt, but I have explained, and Norman has explained, why that is unlikely to affect the TNF. Keep in mind I am talking about a specific freqency test in which the butt is captured and the blade allowed to vibrate. If one used a test in which the rod were free to vibrate without any constraints, it would be a different test with possibly different results. I believe that the way we fish, with the rod held at the butt (sort of constrained) that TNF is representative of sensitivity. Not all agree. But way back through rod history, most experts have agreed that the natural frequency of a blank, as defined as its frequency as a cantilever beam, was one of the most important characteristics of the rod. Hanneman's CCF was based on the same principal.

While there are skeptics on the TNF process, I challenge them to come up with a better idea and practical process. One of the skeptics months ago trashed TNF and had a long post detailing his better method for testing a blank for sensitivity. His system would have cost thousands. We have not heard from him since.

If one doesn't believe in TNF, fine. If one does, all it takes is a wrapping machine with roller stands and an Android device.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 06:15PM

Hi David..I mainly like braided line for it,s thinner diameter and strength..It seems that when I,m fishing a crankbait the fish hook themselves and since the line has no shock absorbtion, I use fiberglass rods which are incredible for keeping a fish hooked..they can shake their heads to no avail..I,ve hooked fish on a spinnerbait and the jump repeated times..when I get them in the boat I just drop the rod tip and the bait just drops out because the lips are so hard to penetrate fully but she still could not throw the hook..I like a tip up rod posture for worms and jigs so by holding the foregrip the rod automatically is positioned in this manner..When I fish a crankbait or spinner, the rod tip is pulled down by the lures resistance to where we have a dynamic or cranking Ballance and the rod is just cradled in the hand..When not cranking everything is unballanced and the tip wants to go back up..Leader wise power pro is so thin I don,t use one but if I feel the need I ty on a piece of five pound power pro which is much thinner and harder to see..I do not care for mono or flour because they are stiffer and thicker than braid and stiffle some of the lures action..It,s amazing how much action lures really have and I feel braided line allows them to do their thing..lol.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 06:15PM

Hi David..I mainly like braided line for it,s thinner diameter and strength..It seems that when I,m fishing a crankbait the fish hook themselves and since the line has no shock absorbtion, I use fiberglass rods which are incredible for keeping a fish hooked..they can shake their heads to no avail..I,ve hooked fish on a spinnerbait and the jump repeated times..when I get them in the boat I just drop the rod tip and the bait just drops out because the lips are so hard to penetrate fully but she still could not throw the hook..I like a tip up rod posture for worms and jigs so by holding the foregrip the rod automatically is positioned in this manner..When I fish a crankbait or spinner, the rod tip is pulled down by the lures resistance to where we have a dynamic or cranking Ballance and the rod is just cradled in the hand..When not cranking everything is unballanced and the tip wants to go back up..Leader wise power pro is so thin I don,t use one but if I feel the need I ty on a piece of five pound power pro which is much thinner and harder to see..I do not care for mono or flour because they are stiffer and thicker than braid and stiffle some of the lures action..It,s amazing how much action lures really have and I feel braided line allows them to do their thing..lol.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 17, 2022 07:18PM

Michael, I didn't mean to pass over what you said in your reply to me. I wanted to address ben on the braid thing as it is something I have been wanting to ask him for a while now. The beeper went off on my oven so it was dinner time LOL

I am glad to see that I didn't misinterpret your use of the word "it" that I referred to earlier. I was guilty of assuming that when you mentioned weight lower on the rod, that you were also including weight behind the reel seat. And I do remember you and Norman speaking about how securing the butt of the rod more firmly might adversely affect your TNF testing. I believe at the time I read that, I mentioned that I agreed with that thought.

It is also the reason I mention how lightly you can grip a well balanced rod and reel. I know it doesn't amplify the vibrations I can feel, but it certainly seems like it does. Maybe that's why I insist that I can feel things at times, that others say is impossible for me to feel. It may be a fault of mine, but I can be rather adamant when it comes to things I am passionate about. And clearly I am passionate about this whole adding any weight to a rod diminishes its' performance thing.

ben, thank you for your explanation. I can see what you're saying as to why you like braided line, and I agree with some of your reasons. Braid is so supple that lure action is definitely enhanced. That's why with certain baits, light line of the types of line that I use, will get you more bites at times, because lure action isn't as restricted as it would be with a heavier more stiff line. As to braid's thinner diameter, if I used braid in places other than very heavy cover, I might find its' small diameter a plus, But I find that it definitely isn't a plus in heavy cover. It cuts into tree bark much easier and increases hang ups. I use 65# braid. Partially because of its' increased resistance to shock, but mostly because of it's diameter. I think it handles better on a casting reel, and I only use braid on casting gear, and it doesn't cut into cover as easily.

I actually like fluorocarbon line because it is stiffer. I find that I get better sensitivity from fluorocarbon line when using light weights. I think that's because it sinks, and that its' being more stiff resists bowing in windier conditions. In my mind it allows a more physically straight connection between rod tip, and bait. There are a lot of other reasons I like fluorocarbon as well, last on that list of reasons is its' supposed lower underwater visibility. That's a nice plus though. lol

Using mono is along the same lines as using braid is for me. I use it when its' attributes are required, or advantageous to do so. Pretty much top waters because it floats. Squrebills because it floats which lets the bait back up from snags more easily. And spinnerbaits and squarebills because its' larger diameter can help keep a bait higher in the water column when needed.

And finally, an apology to Joe, this thread's originator. Sorry about being the reason, or part of the reason this thread got off track. Hopefully you were able to get at least some of the thoughts you were looking for, before the thread went off the deep end.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2022 07:20PM by David Baylor.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: August 17, 2022 08:58PM

The action of a lure is enhanced more by the lines diameter because a thinner line has less resistance moving back and forth in the water than a thicker line since the line is attached to the lips which swing back and forth..Braid is half the diameter of mono line.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2022 09:43AM by ben belote.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 18, 2022 04:13PM

Interesting theory ben. I think a line suppleness has more affect than diameter. But diameter certainly could play a part. You have to remember though .... braid is a textured line, and if you are talking about original Power Pro, it definitely has more texture than the newer smoother braided lines. That texture adds surface area. In my experience, because braids texture adds surface area, it acts like a larger diameter smooth line would, as far as water resistance goes. How much larger of a diameter, I wouldn't even dare to a guess. But it's there.


I do know this. Braid reacts to wind more than larger diameter nylon of fluorocarbon mono filament lines. And current affects it more as well. It's all because of its' texture. If it weren't for braid being IMO, horrible in windier conditions, I'd probably give it another go as a main line on at least one of my spinning rods, But for the weights I often throw on spinning gear, I just find braid a poor choice. At least for me. Now my brother braid is all he uses on spinning gear. And he loves it.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 18, 2022 06:02PM

Braid is basically all I use on both spinning and casting outfits. First tried it back in the 90s and have never looked back. I always use it with a mono or fluorocarbon leader. Never really had problems with it. Some of the newer stuff is really nice.
Norm

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: August 18, 2022 06:20PM

I remember when I first used braid on spinning..I liked it so much I removed all my casting reels and boxed them for storage and that,s where they still are..lol..Norrman, what newer braids do you like? Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2022 06:27PM by ben belote.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 18, 2022 07:15PM

The Hitena braids are the best I’ve used for spinning reels. Picked up a spool at the expo 3 or 4 yrs ago to try, and I’m still using it. The braid I picked up at the time was a 12 strand braid, the more recent version is a 16 strand braid. They have an extremely small diameter and are very smooth. However, they are expensive. For casting reels, I like most of the 8 strand braids like JBraid X8, PowerPro super slick, and others. Since I’m a line watcher, I like colored braids because I can see them. Wished Hitena made a chartreuse braid, but pink works.
Norm

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: August 18, 2022 07:24PM

Thanks Norman!

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 18, 2022 07:37PM

Just for a little clarification , the majority of braids over the last 20 + years have been 4 strand braids and to a lesser extent 8 strand braids so when Norm mentions 12 and 16 strand braids that's quite a difference and a big part of the added expense . Technology is great if used for the right purpose.

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