Been using Flex coat High Build so far. Only about 7 rods or so. I would like to try something else. Thinking Gen 4. Is there any reason or benefit to using a HB if you're still doing 2-3 thin coats? No way can I cover nicely in 1 coat so why use HB?

I used Gen 4 Lite or whatever it's called on my last rod and only needed a minor touch-up on a couple guides. The decal area usually takes 2 coats. I have often used two coats on the guides due to having to fix thread nubs and thin epoxy on top of the foot. I prefer the thinner versions of thread epoxy.

I think your analysis is correct, if it's likely to require 2 coats anyway, use thinner epoxy.

It can be argued that if you want thin epoxy, just put it on thinner.

I recently received a sample of wrap epoxy that was so viscous that it appeared that bubbles didn't clear well, so that is another argument for lower viscosity, IMHO.

Watch Tom Kirkman on U tube apply a one coat wrap which can only be done by first sealing the wrap usually with CP.

ben belote Wrote:
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> Watch Tom Kirkman on U tube apply a one coat wrap
> which can only be done by first sealing the wrap
> usually with CP.


You can do a one-coat wrap just as well without using CP.

.............

Your right Tom..most builders use the first coat of epoxy to seal the wrap so to speak and usually have to apply another one or two coats to level or make the first coat Xtra heavy to level..the wrap in your video looked sealed because of the ease you applied the epoxy, no trying to pound the epoxy through the wrap and no gobs of epoxy to saturate the thread..you can do that only because the threads are sealed maybe I should say that,s the only way I can do it..

I almost exclusively use a high build epoxy, because I get very good coverage with one coat. I only do a second coat if I get flaws in the first coat. In my opinion, the lite coat epoxies just requires more work and time to get a good looking finish.
Norm

Robert

Is there any reason to switch? Are you having troubles with the Flex Coat? If it isn't broke...

I personally like Flex Coat Ultra-V formula. Better adhesion and working time. Workability is nice too.

Here are a couple videos that show how we do it:

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

John Cates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert
>
> Is there any reason to switch? Are you having
> troubles with the Flex Coat? If it isn't
> broke...
>
> I personally like Flex Coat Ultra-V formula.
> Better adhesion and working time. Workability is
> nice too.
>
> Here are a couple videos that show how we do it:
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> [www.youtube.com]
>
> [www.youtube.com]

It's working for the most part. Just thought I would try something different before I get to set in my ways. ;)
I've watched the videos, again, my biggest hurdle was over coming the wavy finish. That's when I started with much much thinner coats and the horizontal stroke as the last brush stroke. So I thought what's the point of high build if you're doing multiple thin coat?

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your right Tom..most builders use the first coat
> of epoxy to seal the wrap so to speak and usually
> have to apply another one or two coats to level or
> make the first coat Xtra heavy to level..the wrap
> in your video looked sealed because of the ease
> you applied the epoxy, no trying to pound the
> epoxy through the wrap and no gobs of epoxy to
> saturate the thread..you can do that only because
> the threads are sealed maybe I should say that,s
> the only way I can do it..


If the thread is not sealed with CP you just apply a bit more epoxy in that one-coat application. With some practice you'll get the right amount on there. If you get a dry spot it's 2 second process to fill it in.

.......

Robert, I can,,t use high build on unsealed wraps, just too much time wasted trying to get wrap penetration..you can thin it but it,s not high build anymore, it,s low build and acts like low build and the epoxy in the cup is getting more high build..CP sealed wraps are so easy to finish and quicker, no time wasted trying to get penetration of finish, no fighting bubbles during application, no thick or thin spots and makes rods colorful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 02:06PM by ben belote.

I’ve never had problems with high build penetrating wraps. I rarely use CP.

I have recently started using Gen 4 but for many years have used Flexcoat. The High Build difference is this (my personal experience), G4 tends to get bubbles from the thread but does not start out with them. High Build FC starts out with bubbles but they dissipate fairly rapidly, especially with heat applied. I like the viscosity of G4 but you really need 2 or more coats to get full fill coverage. Flexcoat will do a better 1 coat, or at least easier. G4 is clearer than FC and looks like it does not yellow as much with age. This what I have found and would say that I will use both in the future, just on different builds.

I think a lot of the difference in epoxy penetration is caused by wrap packing,.I do a lot of packing but get the sense that people who use a machine wind the thread without very little or any packing so not to stop..machines are supposed to finish first..lol. loosly packed wraps Allow quicker epoxy penetration.

Robert,
From the replies, it should be obvious that thread finish epoxy, both brand and type (high / low viscosity) is a personal preference as with many other aspects of rod building as well. While most are pretty much variations on the same theme, their handling characteristics can vary. Only YOU can decide which works best YOU; and you won’t know until after trying others.
There are other considerations with thread epoxy other than just how many coats are required; pot life, cure time, yellowing, bubble release, flow-out / self leveling, penetration (especially to completely fill the tunnels on either side of the guide foot), besides thin and thick versions.
I have tried a half dozen different brands, both thick and thin, and after considering all the above, my go to preference is Flex Coat and Thread Master, in the thin versions. Typically, the thinner versions have a longer pot life (and with that a longer cure time), yellow less, release bubbles better, self level better, and penetrate the thread and tunnels better, all very important to me. CTS Crystal Coat is definitely thinner and yellows less than the others, but has an extended cure time. I have not tried Gen 4 but will when my present stock is depleted. Gen 4 has received many good reports recently.
Beyond selling very good products, Flex Coat’s customer service and dedication to rod building is second-to-none = hard to beat!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Robert

It is possible to get razor thin coats with any viscosity of finish. Our Lite formula is just easier to achieve thin coats because it is a thinner viscosity. It is primarily for fly rods where weight is very important.

The waves in the finish used to be my biggest problem as well until I learned the Catch the Wave technique from Roger Seiders as outlined in one of the videos I posted earlier. That video changed my life. I no have total control of the finish with minimal effort and never overwork the finish. I would maybe give that a second look. My finish looks like a sheet of glass with two coats.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

For many years, I do as Norm does; i.e. use a single coat for rod finish.
I use Flex Coat high build as I did many years ago when first starting to wrap.
At one time, I would use two or more coats of finish on a wrap.

But, for the last many years, I only use one coat for the thread wraps.

I should say that I use one coat + for the thread wraps.

I mix up the finish for 2 minutes as measured on the clock.

Then, I begin to apply liberally, so that there will be enough finish on each wrap including the butt wrap for complete coverage.

Then, I grab my heat gun and go over each wrap again, using a bit of gentle heat to insure that the finish is thin enough to really flow out nicely.

Once, I have gone over all of the wraps, I go back to where I started and do it again - which is essentially an inspection, but will touch up a wrap here and there if there is excess or a deficit in the coating.

Then, I go back over one final time under the normal high intensity light and the magnification that I always use. Normally, this is only an inspection and a sign off - so to speak on the coating of each wrap.

This typically equates in total to maybe 5 minutes per rod.

As Mr. Kirkman has said many many many times in the past - No need to brush out finish. Rather, let the finish do the work and flow by itself as the rod is turning.

Basic rule #1 when it comes to coating a rod.

Absolutely 0 reason to take any more than a few seconds per wrap to get the finish on and move to the next. As the rod continues to turn, the first applied finish is levelling and becoming smooth as you finish the rest of the rod. No need to brush at the finish - since the finish will take care of that by itself.

I also am NOT a believer in adding acetone or xylene or any other diluent or solvent to a thread wrap finish to make it thinner. Any time a solvent is added, the chemical properties of the finish changes and it is not as sound, as if the finish was not diluted with any sort of finish. In particular, since I am normally only a one coat thread applier on a rod, I want the finish to be its designed level of hardness and rod protection.

Take care



Best wishes.

Have to thank everyone for your knowledge and time. I have a rod to build but instead I think I will just practice some of these techniques with epoxy. I'd love to be able to hit it in one coat. Next time any of the "go to" thinner versions go on sale I just have to try one. Flex coat has done well enough so far. I have no doubt it's more pilot error than anything.

I had problems with guide foot tunnels and bubbles developing. Now I just use a tooth pick and dab blobs of epoxy on them and let it soak in a bit before applying the final finish coat. I started out using low build LS Supreme, then switched to high build LS Supreme. I had problems with the resin or is it the hardener, turning brown in the bottles, so I switched to high build Flex Coat Ultra V.

It doesn't yellow in the bottle nearly as fast as the LS Supreme did. In fact I have partially used bottles that about a year old that have barely yellowed at all.

I have settled on doing one fairly heavy coat and letting it sag and wicking off the excess. Rotate, let it sag and wick off the excess again. Usually in 3, 180 degree turns I have it to where it isn't noticeably sagging. I switch over to the drying motor and let it dry.

I am more than happy with the results.

Some years ago I showed one of my rods to a friend who ran a tackle business..he studied the guides and asked where I got the tape that,s holding the guides on..I said I use thread not tape..he said it sure looks like tape..I then explained how packing the thread every few turns and burnishing them conceals the individual thread and they form this tape like look And I always try to get that look. Just adding that I get much better packing by using finger pressure winding tension..a high winding tension does not make a wrap stronger, only more wraps can do that and packing makes room for more wraps..sorry..I think I put this on the wrong thread.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2022 07:22PM by ben belote.

Ben,
Normally when wrapping I use a power wrapper with as much tension as possible using a high angle of attack of the thread with respect to the rod blank. As a result, very minimal packing is ever required.
Just one more way to minimize the work and maximize build production.

Note:
I adjust the thread tension so that I can not move the guide up and down on the blank, but am to just barely able to rotate the guide on the blank using two thumbs to move the guide.

Be safe