Todd Andrizzi Wrote:
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> Sorry John...I don't know what you meant.




I believe what John meant has to do with Tom Kirkman's former comment which was :


" I have never found the spine to fall on the straightest axis, and very rarely even 180 degrees to the straightest axis. The latter may happen every so often, the former, never"


Rod building legends with the know how and lifelong experience of John Cates ( Owner and founder of Flex Coat) and Tom K ( No introduction needed) are true masters of the craft in every sense of the word . In other words you will NEVER find a blank where the straightest axis and spine match up .

Correction , I always get Rodger Seiders and John Cates mixed up , apologies .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2021 04:14AM by chris c nash.

Thanks Chris! I don't want the universe to explode. I still have a lot of fishing to do.

Who founded Flex-Coat?

I believe it was/is Roger Seiders or Seigers...something like that. He's from Texas. His kids started Yeti coolers. I have talked to him...very nice, pleasant guy.

The following cut/paste was posted by Thomas Thornhill in another thread, and I’m pretty sure he meant to put it here:

“I've been working for over thirty years as an outwrapper. I have wrapped rods for Loomis, Lamiglas, Sage, Winston, Cabela's, Penn, Sage and many more throughout the years and all of them built on the straightest axis. For the most part when the average person buys a rod they do two things they shake the rod to see how it feels and they look down the rod to see how straight it is. If it is crooked they grab the next rod. Rod companies know this and want to sell rods.”

I just spoke with a guy from Winston yesterday. He was adamant that they spine their rods when building. Think his name was Sawer. Also got an email from co-owner of CTS..they spine their rods. She said they have a digital spiner. Waiting for Loomis and Scott and St. Croix. I'm pretty sure this won't make a difference to a lot of people but I am interested to find out how the best do it. Sage does build on the straightest axis...think I mentioned that already.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2021 11:08AM by Todd Andrizzi.

Just heard back from Scott. They do "backbone" (as he put it) their rods.

St. Croix uses a laser to find the straightest axis and builds that way. To each their own.

.............

thanks Tom, I was waiting to hear back from them. Now just waiting for Loomis. I agree...to each his own. I would like to come to a solid conclusion on how and why the majority of the best makers do it. So far Sage and according to you, St. Croix don't spine their rods and Winston, CTS and Scott spine theirs. I like gathering the info and seeing who does what.

And when you are done Todd, you will have the results of a poll. There may be preponderance, of one method over the other, but no facts that one is better than the other!

As many of us build for customers, the method that best satisfies them is best! For mine it is the straightest axis. I only build fly rods, so a straight sited guide lineup is what they look for most could care less about a spine!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2021 11:46AM by Phil Erickson.

Todd here's a Loomis tour video that mentions spine but you never see a blank being spined, I don't know if they're spined ahead of time and the guy gluing up the handles has a mark to line up to, or if he just turns the reel seat till it looks straight. They do mention spine. Watch from the 2:30 min. mark.
[www.youtube.com]



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That's fine Phil. I'm not in any way trying to sway builders one way or another. I build on a spine now but if I found most big name makers built solely on the straightest axis I would maybe consider changing. I'm not doing this to make any body mad but it seems some are getting that way and I am confused. This is a sight to learn and share ideas and techniques. If I were building for customers and they wanted a straight looking rod, I'd build the way you do too. I like my finished rods to look good and be of top performance. Since I don't hang my rods on the wall and look at them...I choose performance over appearance. I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I offended people for asking rod makers how they build.

Building on the spine won't increase performance. It won't necessarily degrade performance, but it will decrease the blank's deadlift capacity.

.............

Tom...I read that study. It decreases it by very little. They did 50 rods...25 on spine and 25 off. No blanks could be produced exactly the same (verbatim). I am really baffled that this is such a hot issue with some people. If you like building on the spine..do it. If you like to build the straightest axis..do that. I simply thought it would of interest to people to see how the "best" makers do it. I am interested in how products and with what material products I buy are made. So if I were going build me a lawn mower...I'd research how Toro or Honda made theirs. If you all are not interested, I won't post more results. Don't want any body getting butt hurt.

Thanks Lynn!

Lynn, I had to listen a couple of times but the guide was saying about the handle application and when the handle was done he said, it's all lined up with the "spline" of the blank and now ready for the guides and tip top to be put on. I use the word spine...not spline. That was an interesting video. I don't make building a rod look that fast or easy. If someone watched me they'd think, no way do I want to get into that mess. Thanks...good video.

The following cut/paste was posted by Thomas Thornhill in another thread, and I’m pretty sure he meant to put it here:

“I've been working for over thirty years as an outwrapper. I have wrapped rods for Loomis, Lamiglas, Sage, Winston, Cabela's, Penn, Sage and many more throughout the years and all of them built on the straightest axis. For the most part when the average person buys a rod they do two things they shake the rod to see how it feels and they look down the rod to see how straight it is. If it is crooked they grab the next rod. Rod companies know this and want to sell rods.”

Thank You Stuart for catching that I posted this in the wrong tread.

Todd, I am not mad! The points I have been attempting to make (and repeated by Tom) are that building on the spine DOES NOT enhance performance, and may not satisfy customers, due to not being straight.

I agree to each his own, and those who have been on this site for a long period know. this is a non-solvable issue! My conclusion is.........................if there is no performance benefit, why bother spining.

Todd Andrizzi Wrote:
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> Tom...I read that study. It decreases it by very
> little. They did 50 rods...25 on spine and 25 off.
> No blanks could be produced exactly the same
> (verbatim). I am really baffled that this is such
> a hot issue with some people. If you like building
> on the spine..do it. If you like to build the
> straightest axis..do that. I simply thought it
> would of interest to people to see how the "best"
> makers do it. I am interested in how products and
> with what material products I buy are made. So if
> I were going build me a lawn mower...I'd research
> how Toro or Honda made theirs. If you all are not
> interested, I won't post more results. Don't want
> any body getting butt hurt.

The only difference is the mass producers have to keep an eye on things beyond performance - they have to consider what the consumer is going to find "good or bad." The whole idea of custom rod building is to build a better rod than you can buy. So... since we know for a fact that the spine cannot be orientated to produce longer or more accurate casts, or to prevent rod twist, and yet reduces a rod's total deadlift capability and speed, what advantage does it offer us? Conversely, if building on the straightest axis produces a more powerful blank (albeit by just a little) with faster speed and at no loss in any other category, why wouldn't someone build this way?

But again, spine makes so little difference that it is possible to build on or off the spine and have a perfectly functional rod. So do what feels right to you.

...............

Thanks...I never want to lose the desire to learn new things. So...that's what I do.