Ok overthinking things again. Looking for opinions. Building on a NFC FW 461-1. Four foot six UL Moderate action. Not concerned with reduction train. Going somewhat unconventional with just two reduction guides but it works. As for runners I am running five Pacbay minima f size 4. So total of seven guides. Static load looks perfect. If I drop down to just four runners I can get to "that's probably good enough". I am thinking being a UL to go with the best static load. Then I think that I am adding extra weight and slowing the action. But being a moderate action I doubt it will have any noticeable effect. I am also only using a size 8 and a 4 low minima m for reduction so I saving a lot of weight from "normal". So stick with best static load setup or try and shave minuscule weight?

I'm extremely tuned in to making my builds as light as humanly possible even skipping winding checks and making my wraps as short as possible but if this was my build I would stick with the best static load setup . You won't be able to tell a difference between not having and having one extra size 4 Minima running guide even with this particular build . Best to add an extra runner especially with a tiny size 4 if it's 'Probably' going to be good enough meaning you hope it will be fine but you aren't absolutely sure . You can leave an extra runner off if you're at the point of saying it's 'Definitely' going to be good enough .

Sounds like it's going to be an amazing stick .

Enjoy

Adding guides won't slow the action, but they will slow rod speed. I'd try backing off one guide and see how things look. On lighter rods that weight makes an even greater difference.

............

Funny how a 4 mm guide is called tiny in some areas. They have been around and used in the Pac NW a very long time on custom and factory rods. When Shimano first came out with their long spool reels they also came out with a line of rods with those tiny guides, G Loomis was using them long before that.
Looks like your thinking outside the box in the Pat Vinzant realm, what distance are you using between the reel face and your first guide?

I took a break from building for near twenty years. Micro guides are a huge departure from what I used to use.

I am at 12 inches to the first guide. Lip of reel is a 11 from the butt.

Here is the overview of the rod. Building it for a small stream trout rod.. As in most spots are no more than six to eight feet across and often under three feet. Casting distance is low priority mainly drift live bait. However this setup will cast rather well. I am running a cetus 800 series reel with 6 lb braid, so no memory in the line. I started with the first guide further out. However I did not like the static load. There is a good amount of blank flex right through the first guide. I am trying to protect the blank. I am typically catching sub 12 inch brook trout. However there is always a possibility of getting into a fish pushing five pounds in the streams that also have brown trout, which is a lot to ask of this blank.

Michael,
Any time you catch a really big fish on a very undersized, or under powered for for the blank.

Do the rod and a blank a favor -

Keep the tip of the rod, and the rest of the rod - pointed directly at the fish.

i.e. do not load the rod at all.
Rather, just let your arm and elbow and wrist fight the fish - while keeping the entire rod pointed directly at the fish and unbent. If the rod doesn't get bent, is won't break and won't overload the rod.

I have seen ultra light rods like yours catch 20 lb northerns using the afore mentioned technique. The fellow was fortunate that day since he just happened to have 15 lb line on the reel at the time.

Best wishes.

I have lots of experience with big fish on UL rods. Know the technique. But also know things don't always go as planned. So I am planning worst case scenario.

With the lack of any measured and reported actual PERFORMANCE comparison between blanks and guides - casting distance or hoop strength for example - we are left with selecting rods blanks and components based upon vague generalities, such as the "most powerful" or "smoothest" or "longest casting" or "most accurate" or "finest" or "most soulful" [really!] rod building components out there?!

Phil your exactly right. I have found myself questioning those generalities much more than I did in the past. Which is both a good and a bad thing. For the best build it is good to think of all angles. But at least for me I quickly get to the point of overthinking things a lot of times.

Even if you build a whole bunch of rods on different blanks with the exact same guides , layout, line type and test with the exact same reel each individual will have a different opinion on it . These is no best all around rod , all each builder can do is build something that they're going to be the most happy with . You have the choice to build for ultimate casting distance, accuracy and smoothness but I have yet to come across a build sheet for most soulful .

How often do you see a builder complain about the performance of their rod , virtually never . The only people who are very unsure about blanks and components and how to choose those things based on what they want to do are the most wet behind the ear beginners for the most part.

If you really want the best possible performance from a build then build a rod for one specific reel because this allows you to really fine tune both to work optimally together . Building a rod to be used with a variety of reels doesn't allow this type of fine tuning but in all honesty the majority are perfectly happy with builds that work with a variety of reels, I'm not one of those people . The fact is most do overthink this stuff and in the end there is no magic component or build type that will provide a rod that's perfect at everything.

To each their own as they say.

"Static load look perfect". I think you answered your own question. Could you get away with one less? Very likely, I like perfect.

Michael,
On a rod of this length, I doubt that I would ever go with more than 5 guides. Unless you have a really soft tip, more guides are simply not necessary.

However, if the tip is very very soft you might have to have the top 2 or 3 guides only 2-3 inches apart to have the line follow the loaded blank.

Best wishes.