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KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: JON OUVERSON (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 20, 2020 08:27AM

Hello, I'm new to this forum and working on my first build/rebuild of a blank I used and loved in my younger years. I decided to go with the KR concept after doing much research. Since I knew I'd be putting some time into this I went with Titanium SiC.
I am having an issue with my reduction train achieving the bullseye configuration with the first three guides (stripper, 2nd reducer, 3rd reducer) with the guide spacing provided by the KR GPS app. I am making my measurements from the center of the guide ring.
I am hesitant to continue the build until I get the reduction train right.

KR GPS gives me the following build sheet and KR group:

20H
10H
6L
stripper position: 21"
stripper to 2nd reducer: 8.52"
2nd reducer to 3rd reducer: 7.44"
3rd reducer to choke: 5.04
total reduction train length: 21"
choke position beyond spool axle: 42"

When I measure these out and place the guides, the 3rd reducer is either too low or the 2nd reducer is too high. It will not form the bullseye configuration. I've triple checked the measurements and the overall reduction train length s 21".

So my first question is, how precise is the GPS software expected to be and should I consider deviating from the recommended spacing to form the bullseye?

I can form a bullseye by moving the 2nd reducer about 0.25" closer to the stripper, which also increases the distance between 2nd and 3rd reducer to about 7.75". My thinking is that by moving the 2nd reducer, I am not increasing the overall length of the reduction train.

Is what I have done above the correct methodology?
Should I consider moving the 3rd reducer and choke guide closer (reducing overall reduction train length) instead of moving the 2nd reducer?
Is a deviation from the KR GPS guide spacing by a quarter inch a common thing during guide spacing setup or does it sound like I received an incorrect guide from the vendor?

Your help is very much appreciated.

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: May 20, 2020 09:23AM

KR GPS came out when the 5.5M was the primary third guide in the reduction train. 6L, 6M, 7L, 7M, 8M, 8H all came out later as many discovered that KR had applications beyond medium weight micro rods. Their formulas were added to GPS after the initial software was developed and there were a few cases where the fit was not exactly perfect considering some 3 guide trains 4 guide trains etc. using the L and M heights. Test cast the suggested layout and then try "cheating" guides forward or back a little to get closer to the bullseye. Braid is a friendly line, just make sure you're not creating a disruption in line flow.

The 20 and 10 are correct, bullseye them to your choke point and then see where the 6L falls. The 6L is 2mm lower than the 5.5M so it will move further out the blank than the 5.5M would...but not much.

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: May 20, 2020 09:24AM

The KR GPS gives you a good starting point, it’s measurements are not locked in stone. There is a lot of flexibility in putting a guide train together. Not sure what information you put into the KR GPS, but I have not seen this particular reduction train show up before. The 6L is shorter than the 5.5M which is used in most of my reduction trains. I have used a 6L before but as a choke guide on a none micro build. What size reel and what size and type of line are you using?
Don’t be afraid to move things around a little, you can certainly move the stripper and/or choke guide in or out a little to get the spacing that you are happy with.
Norm

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: JON OUVERSON (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 20, 2020 09:40AM

Thank you all for the responses so far.

It sounds like it might be better to move the 3rd reduction guide instead of the second?

The input into the GPS is 84", 13", 4000, conventional, 12-15 braid.
I chose this reduction train setup because it seems to be in between the output of the 4000 at 20 lb braid and the 3000 at 12-15 lb braid. I decided on those inputs into GPS because they yielded a very balanced 21" to the stripper and 21" overall reduction train.

The reel is actually a daiwa saltist 3000 but I know that the daiwas run a little bigger than shimanos. In comparison to a quantum 4000 and an older daiwa tierra 4000 I have on other setups, the spool size of the saltist 3000 might even be larger in diameter than the quantum and about the same as the tierra.
I'm running 15 lb power pro super slick v2.

Thanks again,

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: May 20, 2020 10:10AM

I assume you want to use size 6 or 5.5 runners. If so it may work fine. Could also use 20H,10H, 7M, and 6L as your choke. If you are planning on using 5.5 or smaller runners then use the KL5.5 M as the third runner. If you look at the reduction guide placement, for conventional vs micro they are basically identical. I think the problem you are having is that the 6L is a little on the short size for its position, so adjust accordingly.
Norm

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: JON OUVERSON (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 20, 2020 10:30AM

Thank you for the advice Norm and Jim,

I will put the 10H 2nd reducer back into the GPS position and move the 6L 3rd reducer accordingly. I'm feeling much more comfortable about continuing the build thanks to your input.

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Nicholas Huang (111.65.57.---)
Date: May 20, 2020 08:56PM

I find the KR GPS is always off when they call for a 3rd guide above 5.5

If the GPS mentions 6L, just swap it to a 6M and you ll be able to get the bullseye.

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: JON OUVERSON (---.col.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 21, 2020 08:53AM

Agreed Nicholas, I bullseyed the 20H and 10H to the choke point which maintained the 21" overall reduction train length (the 20H, 10H, and choke point seem to bullseye exactly where they are supposed to from the GPS) and then moved the 6L out to to align with the bullseye. Unfortunately, the 6L had to move quite a bit to achieve this. I even moved the choke point out to get the half and half look shown at the bottom of the GPS page.

Since the 6L had to move so far out, the reduction train looks aesthetically unbalanced, to the point that the 6L and choke point are closer together than the remaining running guides would space. So I've decided to remove the 6L from the reduction train and replace with either a 5.5M or 6M (leaning towards the 5.5M). Unfortunately the vendor is sold out of black titanium SiC guides in those sizes so I'm in a holding pattern until I can get them ordered. I'd rather wait and get the right matching parts then build something that isn't to my liking.

Live and learn and hopefully some others new to rod building can learn from this post that the 6L doesn't seem to be the right guide for the 3rd reducer in the 20H/10H reduction train.

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: May 21, 2020 09:46AM

Agreed, the 6L seems just too short to use as the third reduction guide. Nicolas is spot on with the 6M, this would allow for the use of larger size 6 or 5.5 runners, if desired. You could also use a 7M as the third reduction guide, and the 6L could be used as the choke guide, this would allow for the use of the larger size 6 or 5.5 runners for a conventional build. For a micro build I would certainly use the 5.5M and then on to your smaller runners in the size of your choosing from 5.5 to 4. I mostly use size 4.5 runners and on some occasions size 5 and less often size 4. Good luck with your build, you will love the performance of the KR concept.
Norm

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Re: KR Groups and Bullseye Configuration Question
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.97.252.156.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: May 21, 2020 07:03PM

I live for posts like this one. Thanks to all for the input.

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