I
nternet gathering place for custom rod builders
  • Custom Rod Builders - This message board is provided for your use by the sponsors listed on the left side of the page. Feel free to post any question, answers or topics related in any way to custom building. When purchasing products please remember those who sponsor this board.

  • Manufacturers and Vendors - Only board sponsors are permitted and encouraged to promote and advertise products on the board. You may become a sponsor for a nominal fee. It is the sponsor fees that pay for this message board.

  • Rules - Rod building is a decent and rewarding craft. Those who participate in it are assumed to be civilized individuals who are kind and considerate in their dealings with others. Please respond to others in the same fashion in which you would like to be responded to. Registration IS NOW required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting. Posts which are inflammatory, insulting, or that fail to include a proper name and email address will be removed and the persons responsible will be barred from further participation.

    Registration is now required in order to post. You must include your actual First and Last name and a correct email address when registering or posting.
SPONSORS

ICRBE 2020
EXPO ON FACEBOOK
CCS Database
Int. Custom Rod Symbol
Common Cents Info
American Tackle
Angler’s Roost
Anglers Rsrc - Fuji
Anglers Workshop
BatsonRainshadowALPS
BRC Rods
Bingham Enterprises
CRB
Cork4Us
HNL Rod Blanks–CTS
CTS New Zealand
Custom Fly Grips LLC
Decal Connection
Flex Coat Co.
Get Bit Outdoors
Hitena USA
HYDRA
Janns Netcraft
Mickels Custom Rods
Mudhole Custom Tackle
MHX Rod Blanks
North Fork Composites
Pacific Bay
ProProducts
Reelseatblanks.com
Renzetti Inc.
Rougarou Rods
Rodgeeks
RodMaker Magazine
RodMaker Magazine Blog
Schneiders Rod Shop
SeaGuide Corp.
Tackleworks
The Rod Room
Trondak U-40
Utmost Enterprises
VisualWRAP/VisualWEAVE
ZipCast

Pages: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2
KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 04:19PM

I am building Northfork 11 1/2 ft and MHX 10 ft surf rods. These rods are for fishing striper bass, halibut and salmon in San Francisco Bay. The spinning reels I am using are Shimano ULCI45500XTC and ULCI414000XTC. The reels will be loading with 15 or 20 lbs of mono line. I can't determine whether to use KL-H or KW guide for these rods, because I only stock with KL-H guides. If I am using KW guide train, will this work for me?

Stripper guides:
KW30, KW25, KW16
Choke guide:
KW12
Running guides:
KW8 X9

Or (using KL-H guide train)
Stripper guides:
25H, 16H, 8H
Choke guide:
KB 6
Running guides:
KT 5.5 X 9

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,

Johnny



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2019 05:02PM by Johnny Tan.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 04:50PM

Johnny,
When you mention “KR” guides, are you actually referring to KL-H or RV guides? While I am unfamiliar with “KR” guides, “KR Concept” guides include KL-H, RV, KB and KT.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 04:59PM

Hi Mark,

Sorry about that. I meant KL-H guide. I wasn't thinking straight when I was typing. I have made the correction.

Thanks,

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 06:33PM

Johnny,
Now that we are on the same page, the choice of NGC (KW) or KR Concept (KL-H) guides depends on your requirements (targeted fish size, sensitivity and such). Just to confuse you further, don’t rule-out Fuji’s “LC low-rider” guides for the stripper/ reduction train. I have found them to be very effective for spinning due to their high frame-to-ring-diameter, and they are quite sexy as well. Unfortunately, the LCs are not offered in Fuji’s new corrosion-control finish, which is a huge PLUS for saltwater use. I have combined LCs with KWs with very nice results for heavier applications. Apparently you have ruled-out the RV guides which may require taking-out a second on your house to afford. I cannot blame you, me too.
As for ring sizes and considering your choice of a 4000-5000 size reel, consider “halving” the size of the reduction guides; KW30, KW16, KW8 or KL-H25, KL-H12, KL-H6. Check with Anglers Resource and their suggested guide sizes. Personally, I do not see why one could not employ KBs for the majority of the runners with KTs used on the smaller tip section with a KW reduction train, but that may be just me.
I am certain Herb C. will offer his opinion, as he is the prevalent surf guy, and am interested in his response.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 07:12PM

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the advice. I would rather using KL-H guides instead of KW, because I don't stock any KW guide now. I certainly can't afford the expensive RV guides. One thing I am not sure KL-H guides can handle 20 lbs mono line. It is good for 12lbs and below I think, but I may be wrong.

Regards,

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 08:10PM

Johnny,
Again, it all depends on what you anticipate taking your offering! That being said, and take comfort in knowing, there are those on this site, Tom K. and myself included, that many present-day guides are overly-strong and can withstand the implied forces of quite large fish. As suggested earlier, the use of as many KBs before the diameter of the blank dictates the use of KTs, should handle quite sizeable fish while affording a lighter, more sensitive rod. Then again, I wouldn’t use KTs or even KBs on a tuna rod! Generally speaking regarding your particular the case-in point, go with the lightest set-up (KL-H) as true “Angling” can be employed if that TROPHY takes your offering! I love fishing light tackle!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.sub-174-235-130.myvzw.com)
Date: August 22, 2019 08:26PM

The use of a KW reduction guide train would be a NewGuide Concept (NGC) build, and the use of a KLH reduction guide train would be a KR concept build they are different. A KR concept build would work just fine with the rod you want to build it would be lighter than using KW guides, making the rod lighter and more fun to fish. However, your size grouping for a KR concept is not correct. I would use KL25H, KL12H, KL7M for the reduction train followed by a KL6L choke, and KB/KT5.5 or 5 runners. For a NGC build using KW guides I might try KW30, KW25, Kw20, KW10, and KW 8,7 or 6 runners. Also for a NGC build I might be more prone to use the following guides, KW30, KL20 (not KL20H), KL12, and KT 8, 7, or 6.runners. This second NGC layout would be lighter and should perform very well. The KL 20 is higher than a KW20, and actually fits better with the KW 30.
Here is a link to understanding KR guide groupings. [anglersresource.net]
And here is a link for KW guide grouping. [anglersresource.net]
Norm



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2019 08:31PM by Norman Miller.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 08:43PM

Hi Mark and Norman,

That's really help and very informative.

Thank you so much!

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.sub-174-235-130.myvzw.com)
Date: August 22, 2019 09:21PM

I would certainly rethink using mono, I would go with braid 20 to 30 pound test. The actual breaking strength will be at least double as what is listed. In addition braid will cast much better than mono and is more sensitive. I would use a mono or fluorocarbon leader attached to the braid via an FG knot. Braid also increases line capacity, and thus a smaller and lighter reel can be used. This will decrease the total weight of the outfit, significantly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 22, 2019 09:48PM

Johnny,
You have received a reply from a very qualified, veteran builder. Norman has been instrumental in flattening my rodbuilding learning curve; consider yourself well-advised to heed to his suggestions as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 12:04AM

Hi Norman,

That's make sense. I was thinking that too. It is a good idea putting more 30 pound braid line instead of 15 or 20 pound mono.

Thanks,

Johnny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2019 12:09AM by Johnny Tan.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 02:05AM

Johnny , you have received solid advice and i agree 100% with choosing braid instead of mono . As soon as i saw the reel models you listed it was clear those are meant for long casting braided line , although you can use mono virtually nobody does with those models since both have advanced worm drive oscillation systems which will wrap far more line per every up/down oscillation cycle than reels which use non worm drive locomotive type oscillation systems .

You can see what i mean by turning the handle on the reel , watch how ridiculously slow the spool moves upward to the top of the oscillation cycle and then travels back downward . It's very very slow and for good reason , the line is being wrapped much much tighter and closer together than other types of spinners which will show a much quicker a full oscillation cycle in two or three handle turns . That's never the case with purposely built long cast spinning reels.


That oscillation type along with spool shape and diameter is what makes the ULC14 Ultegra 5500 XTC and the ULC14 Ultegra14000 XTC such great long range casting machines BUT only if you use line that takes advantage of the reels long casting abilities and i'm sorry to say mono is not that line type . Will mono work , absolutely and can be used and it will cast plenty good but braid is required for ultimate performance.


My # 1 surf reel is an Aero Technium which is the same type of reel so i have no doubt you will be exceptionally pleased. Seriously consider using the line capacity reducers that shipped with your reels especially on the 140000 because there is no need to carry anywhere close to how much line that spool holds, and be particularly careful with determining and deciding on butt length and reel seat positioning because this is a critical part since surf rods in the lengths you chose will require a smooth push and pull casting style with your dominant arm pushing forward at the reel seat position upon release while your other hand will be at the bottom of the butt closer to your body .

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 10:57AM

Just go outside with a good wind blowing.
Use a heat gun and a single edged razor blade to first heat - to soften the finish - and then a single edged razor blade to remove the finish.

Follow up with first 600 grit, then 1000 and then 1200 grit wet and dry paper used wet.

After doing the final polish put on the grip, reel seat, guides and tip top.

No real reason to put any finish on over the fiberglass or graphite blank.

The strong wind will keep junk out of your eyes and face when stripping the rod. If standing in the wind to do this, work so that the wind is blowing either on your right side or your left side.

If you work with the wind in your face, the junk will blow around your body and end up on your back.

If you work with the wind in your back, the junk will blow around your back and end up on your face.

But, if you work with the wind to the right or left side, a person is much thinner when working sideways to the wind, so the wind just blows stuff off in the downwind direction.

Take care

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 01:25PM

Hi Herb,

Aero Technium is a very nice reel. I don't think it is sold in US.

Thanks for the advise.

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 01:34PM

Hi Roger,

Interesting comments. I didn't know I need to sand/polish the surf blank. So far, I only sand my X-Ray blanks from Northfork. Thanks for the advise.

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 02:24PM

Johnny,
I think Roger meant to post his comments on Tom Gardiner’s topic below yours on the forum.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 04:08PM

Rogers comment was indeed for the thread directly below this one , it happens .


Johnny you're correct , the Aero Technium 10000 XSC was sold in the USA for a very short time a few years back but they quickly scrapped it and my guess was the price $ 700 .00 + . It is nearly identical in size to the ULC14 14000 XTC the main difference being the oscillation system which utilizes Shimano's super slow 10 instead of Shimano's super slow 5 . The super slow 10 wraps 100 feet of line per every one full up/down oscillation cycle . The super slow 5 wraps exactly 50 feet of line per one full up/down oscillation cycle.

I decided on the RV25 - RV16- KW 10M - KB 5 for the choke and KT 5's out to the tip and it's performance is draw dropping. I'm happy to tell you though that you don't need to spend RV type money because i spent a ton of time thoroughly testing many different guide setups and found that going with single foot's in the KL25H - KL10H - KL5.5M is a guide train that throws every bit as far as the RV double foot setup .

I tested the KL25H -KL12H AND KL6M and it wasn't quite as good as the former and it's apparent as to the reasons why , i use very light braid ( Under 20 ) for all my surf fishing and have been for decades and with braid that light you DO NOT want to use ring sizes any larger than absolutely necessary.

Now if i was using heavier braid i would choose the KL25H -KL12H KL6M combo but since i don't use heavier braid i prefer the KL25H - KL10H - KL5.5M . Both surf rods are 11 feet long

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 05:37PM

Hi Mark,

Thanks for clarification.

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: Johnny Tan (207.189.24.---)
Date: August 23, 2019 06:03PM

Hi Herb,

After hearing the good thing about RV guide, it really tempts me to try it. Unfortunately, I cannot afford to have two RV guides on the same blank. It is good to know the braid line performs well on KL25H - KL10H - KL5.5M guide train as compare to RV guides. Thank for sharing your expertise and knowledge. I still have a lot to learn. I will definitely tag you again if I have more questions regarding surf rod building.

Also, I want to thanks Mark and Norman for the help in this topic.

Johnny

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: KW guide for Surf rods
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 23, 2019 06:22PM

Johnny Tan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Herb,
>
> After hearing the good thing about RV guide, it
> really tempts me to try it. Unfortunately, I
> cannot afford to have two RV guides on the same
> blank. It is good to know the braid line
> performs well on KL25H - KL10H - KL5.5M guide
> train as compare to RV guides. Thank for sharing
> your expertise and knowledge. I still have a lot
> to learn. I will definitely tag you again if I
> have more questions regarding surf rod building.
>
>
> Also, I want to thanks Mark and Norman for the
> help in this topic.
>
> Johnny



Johnny, don't make any decisions before you're absolutely certain about what line you will be using . I know the reels very well and their spool sizes and shape etc... but your line choice determines everything going forward . If i was you i would choose the lighter rated surf rod and pair it with the ULTC145500 XTC REEL and pair the ULTC1414000 XTC with the blank rated to throw slightly heavier weight .

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Webmaster