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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: June 30, 2019 08:27PM

Tested anglers all reported feeling good about using Rhodium guides, especially after bystanders were informed how exclusive and expensive Rhodium guides are. The Tough Softness* of Rhodium absorbs energy so that loops of line line do not slap back and forth all the way up the guide train and rob distance, and they feel great.
* registered trademark : )

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: June 30, 2019 08:59PM

Phil yanking our chain again , Phil you're impossible, very hard to tell with Phil , a true master .

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: June 30, 2019 11:55PM

Have you ever heard the term - "fake news?"

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Mo Yang (---.dhcp.hspr.ca.charter.com)
Date: July 01, 2019 01:29AM

Interesting discussion. I was wondering exactly this - why Micros never took off even for whom they should - the ultralight rod crowd.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
Date: July 01, 2019 10:02AM

Folks, I was doing some research for a client on evaluating a different rod.

If you don't mind, click on the rod names for the 11794-01 and the 11795-01 in the following link:

When you click on the item number on the page, a pop up will come up to describe the item.

[www.gloomis.com]

I find the information listed is somewhat startling to say the least.

Good luck

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Jim Ising (---.dthn.centurylink.net)
Date: July 01, 2019 10:11AM

We are rod builders. We look at blanks and guide trains. Factories are businesses, they look at fishermen/customers. Larger guides will always appeal to "casual" budget-minded fishermen who think they "know" what a $100 rod should look like. Smaller guides will appeal to a totally different market. Anyone using the words "weight" or "sensitivity" in describing a rod will take the time to understand a size 5.5 or smaller guide. Neither style is going away, it's market-driven.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: July 01, 2019 02:25PM

Uninformed consumers will always make up part of the marketplace. The numbers or percentages of these types of consumers will change over time. To the informed consumer, Micro guides are not going anywhere for a while and are here to stay till something better comes along. Passion and emotion will always be before innovation, whether right or wrong. Don't get but hurt if someone finds a better way to do something, just because you have been doing it wrong for 20 years.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 01, 2019 04:22PM

Lance: I agree totally. I would like uninformed rod buyers and rod builders to have access to performance facts about fishing rods rather than have to rely upon vague reports of "feelings".

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Jason Yu (---.texas.us.northamericancoax.com)
Date: July 03, 2019 01:00PM

I've had zero issues with micro guides. I think people just hate change.

Then again....I tie a FG knot.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Steve Gardner (---.nc.res.rr.com)
Date: July 05, 2019 10:22AM

It Would suite me if all the big rod companies stoped using Micro guides!

When Micro's were first introduced they were exclusively a Custom Builders niche, to aid in building better more efficient rods Allowing us to provide better products then the bigger companies.
Custom builder Bill Steven's (also a marketing genius) began marketing the Micro concept to some of the larger rod companies for his own profit. Effectively taking market share away from custom builders.

Now we see some of those companies going back to larger guides, 2 Reasons:
1. many of them use Fuji guides, and believe Fuji's marketing (miss information) about the smaller then 4mm guides not providing a greater benefit.
2.The one thing that big companies are committed to is "profit margins" it takes more labor to build rods with micro guides. So some have gone back to what worked in the past to increase those margins.
and they sell to a pretty much an uneducated market base, so why spend more to build when you can make more doing it the same old way.

Building exclusively for a pretty much educated base of tournament competition anglers. Fortunately I don't have that problem.
Those who are not. I educate.
Those who are not educatable, I send to other builders, not willing to build a lessor class rod because of their chosen ignorance

Contrary to Roger's belief " the customer is always right."
The customer is NOT always right,
Not when it comes to my reputation and the quality of rod I build. Fortunately my livelihood doesn't depend on it.
Allowing the option of not compromising by building a lesser rod for a customer who thinks he's right.


Roger
The article you linked to above concerning Falcon rods was interesting. But just because they put micro's on a rod does little for performance if they've not taken the time to set up properly,
and I can you they did not.
Which is evidenced in the comment--"Weight is a near match at around 4 ounces." Set up properly there would been (depending on guide brand) an approximate weight savings of 83%
on the guide plus additional weight savings on thread and epoxy

Another example of this would be Ducket rods, when they first cake out with their Micro magic rods. They put 14 guides on them. Their reasoning " people will walk into stores see how many extra guides are on ours and buy them because they stand out from the others". Marketing/sales being their concern and not performance.

Jim
As a rod builder I resent being described this way in your article
"Micro fans became easy to spot at rod building gatherings. They were bleary-eyed, hunched over zombies with long fingernails and anxiety disorders"
That look comes from being a plumbing for 46 years crawling under peoples houses n putting up with their crap

Phil
If you search back through the archives you will find numerical/factual results on 4 or 5 tests concerning Micros. Additionally if you had attended any of the seminars at ICRB Expo I did
on micro guides over the last 10 years or so. You would have had info access to at least 12 more numerical/factual pieces of info. that has not been published on this site.

Another measurable fact:
Local Custom Builder "Benny Lenard", As a test took one of his rods with 6 mm running guides, stripped them off and replaced them with 3 mm micro's based on layout info I suggested to him.
Results using same casting weight=
Rod with 6 mm guides average casting distance 98 ft.
Rod with 3 mm guides average casting distance 163 ft.
But then there were his feelings-- He felt pretty good about the results.


Only building bass rods, some of the following may not work for other gen. of rods.
Personally, I believe that 2.5 mm micro's are the Holy Grail in increased rod performance!
That is based on extensive testing and not feelings.

That being said I have settled on using 3 mm guides in most builds
for a couple reasons:
1.With the original Batson 2 and 2.5 mm guides after 4 to 5 years of service I had a few of the rings pop out. and with the way some tournament anglers treat their rods I've gone to using exclusively
Batson's Alps guides on rods built for others.

2. When Batson started designing the new Alps Micro guides, with the cost of building the equipment to make each size, Bill asked me what size I thought they should make them down to?
Told him that even though I believed 2.5 mm provided the pinnacle of performance. The reality was that most major rod manufacturers would most likely never drop below a 4 mm in production rods,
and that most custom builders (because of the challenges of working with itty bitty micro's) would not buy enough of the 2 or 2.5 mm to justify the cost of the manufacturing equipment.
So they settled on 3 mm as the smallest offering in the Alps guides. Hopefully one day that will change.

On personal lighter rods I still use 1.5, 2., 2.5 mm guides, there is marked improvement with 1.5, 2 mm over 2.5's, but not as much as the 2.5mm over others sizes and the smaller sizes limits line size.
as far as passing knots, in most cases if you can't get a knot to pass through 3 mm guides? You need to switch knots, or learn how to tie better knots.

Roger:
Here is a partial list of companies that carry rods with Micro guides
Hammer rods
Ducket rods
Falcon rods
Carrot Stix
Dobyns rods
Jenko rods
Okuma Helious rods
Quantum rods
among others.
Its worth noting that some companies use the word "mini" instead of Micro, and that others although still using Micro guides have dropped the term from their
marketing hype simple because it no long has the WOW effect it once carried.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2019 11:20AM by Steve Gardner.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: July 05, 2019 06:11PM

I like the way you think Steve. Maybe it is because I was a plumber also. On the other hand, maybe it is a southern thing.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: jim spooner (---.hnremote.net)
Date: July 08, 2019 09:04AM

Well said, Steve.

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Re: Current and future status of Micro guides?
Posted by: Thomas Kaufmann (---.mobile.att.net)
Date: July 10, 2019 11:37AM

Preach on brother Steve!!!! Couldn’t have been said better. Some people just are unwilling to change and even when there is still proof they continue to blindly refuse.

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