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RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Adam S McClain (---.bpxt-r-031.ken.nsw.bigpond.net.au)
Date: May 03, 2019 10:54PM

Hi guys looking at using the RV and KW guide system on a top water rod. Have never used the RV guides and their heights are different to the KW.

Trying to work out the best combo and wanted to run it past you to see if I'm on the money.

The rod I'm building is the CTS Seamaster PE 4-6. 8'3" Stick Bait. (Superb blank and so are their rod tubes!)

Recommended KW guide sizes by CTS are: 30, 25, 16, 12, 12, 12, Tip Top 12

After looking at the Fuji size charts the best combo I can see would be: RV 40, RV 30, KW 25, KW 16, KW 12, KW 12, Tip Top 12. Open to suggestions.

Do the RV's as strippers make a difference? I'm always up for using new ideas and tech if its proven.

Look forward to your comments.

Cheers

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 04, 2019 02:42AM

What reel and what line do you plan on using ? An RV 40 is HUGE and retails for over $100.00 all by itself , the RV's are the double foot version of Fuji's KR concept, don't know if you're familiar with the KR system but it's worth looking into . Unless you plan on using a large reel with mono i would go smaller than a 40 or a 30 , a high frame 25 size ring ( Which is the definition of the RV 25 in a double foot frame) is outstanding as a stripper guide and will work exceptionally well even with large spool diameter reels with 30 - 40 + pound braid .

The KW 30 frame also allows that and is a great substitute . A very popular reduction train is an RV 25 - RV 16 - KW 12M or a KW 10 M ( Many use both the 12M and then 10M together ) but i do not since the 12M and 10M are so close in height & their ring size differences don't provide any real benefit it's almost like using two of the same guide one after the other ( Works but far from ideal) . The KW 12M and 10M are purposely designed to to work with the RV guide types.

I would also downsize your runners considerably UNLESS you plan on using heavy mono or very heavy braid with line to line connections that require knots to easily pass through your running guides.



Tom , the gentlemen who started and runs this very site set me straight about trying to avoid guide trains that feature every size of guide for instance a KW 40 , KW 30, KW 25, KW 20, KW 16 etc... Well he was correct as usual , much better to try and drop down by skipping certain guides for instance a KW 30 then a KW 16 instead of the KW 20 . A popular jump is a KW 30, 20, 12, 8, 6, 6, 6 ,6 or a KW 30,20,12,8,8,8,8



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2019 02:54AM by herb canter.

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Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Adam S McClain (---.bpxt-r-031.ken.nsw.bigpond.net.au)
Date: May 05, 2019 07:09AM

Thanks for the input Herb!

I'll be using the 5000h saltiga or the Expedition 5500 with up to 150lb leader and the fg knot.

Turns out I have a 25,20 and 16 in the KW Torzite left over from a bungled order where they sent me the wrong sizes and didn't want them returned.. Internet shopping at its finest :) Score!

Think I'll work with these and save a few dollars :)

Whats the reasoning behind skipping certain guides?

Cheers

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 05, 2019 11:21AM

The old style Cone of flight (COF) guide layout used most guide sizes to gradually reduce the line flow to the tip top. The New Guide Concept (NGC) introduced the term reduction train where guides of appropriate height were used to reduce the line flow to a choke point guide and from there to low profile running guides. With this concept not all guide sizes where used just those of the appropriate height were used in the reduction train. Finally, the KR concept was developed as a modification of the NGC using high frame small ring reduction guides matched for height to rapidly choke the line to small low profile running guides. It was developed for use with microguides and braid.
The RV40 and RV30 are NGC guides and are used just like the KW40 and KW30. The RV25, RV20, and RV16 are all KR concept guides and thus have a higher frame height for a given ring size. For example, the RV25 is as high as the KW30, or RV30.
For the rod you are building is using a NGC so you can certainly use the KW guides instead of the RV. The RV guide with the single leg in front supposedly reduces line slap against the guide braces going into the ring.
Norm

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Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 05, 2019 01:55PM

Adam S McClain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the input Herb!
>
> I'll be using the 5000h saltiga or the Expedition
> 5500 with up to 150lb leader and the fg knot.
>
> Turns out I have a 25,20 and 16 in the KW Torzite
> left over from a bungled order where they sent me
> the wrong sizes and didn't want them returned..
> Internet shopping at its finest :) Score!
>
> Think I'll work with these and save a few dollars
> :)
>
> Whats the reasoning behind skipping certain
> guides?
>
> Cheers




So you're going to be using a 5500 Expedition or 5000H huh , man , you're one lucky guy lol . I agree about using up the KW Torzite you have leftover and a KW 25 is high enough and the ring size is large enough to work superbly so lets consider that the stripper . Now to answer your question about the reasoning behind skipping certain guides.

A couple reasons for this, one is reducing weight and the other is to tame the line coils as fast as possible to get the line running straight as fast as possible , when you use guide sizes in every size this taming of the line coils takes a long time to happen since every guide only changes the line flow to a small degree because the ring sizes only gradually get smaller as you go along , not only does this prolong the time it takes to get the line running straight out toward the tip all those guides are barely making a a change as the line progresses forward & each guide used is adding unneeded weight .


When you skip certain guides you are eliminating guides along the way that make very little change to the goal of controlling the line as fast as possible , think about a KW 30 then a KW 25 AND KW 20 , by the time the line reaches the KW 20 what has been accomplished ? Virtually nothing the line is nearly the same size as it was when it started out at the KW 30 with very little change because those 3 guides used together are all not only close in height but the ring sizes are still large, what you accomplish by using those three together is you add additional weight with very very little change in line coil diameter.

Now when you use a KW 30 then a KW 20 then a KW 12 not only have you eliminated the excess weight of the KW 25 AND KW 16 the line is tamed and coils are controlled much much quicker in the process because each guide makes a much bigger beneficial impact . You have three guides that accomplish the exact same task of what the KW 30,25,20,16 ,12 would accomplish and that makes a much more efficient and lighter guide train as well .

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Adam S McClain (---.bla1.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
Date: May 06, 2019 10:38PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The old style Cone of flight (COF) guide layout
> used most guide sizes to gradually reduce the line
> flow to the tip top. The New Guide Concept (NGC)
> introduced the term reduction train where guides
> of appropriate height were used to reduce the line
> flow to a choke point guide and from there to low
> profile running guides. With this concept not all
> guide sizes where used just those of the
> appropriate height were used in the reduction
> train. Finally, the KR concept was developed as a
> modification of the NGC using high frame small
> ring reduction guides matched for height to
> rapidly choke the line to small low profile
> running guides. It was developed for use with
> microguides and braid.
> The RV40 and RV30 are NGC guides and are used just
> like the KW40 and KW30. The RV25, RV20, and RV16
> are all KR concept guides and thus have a higher
> frame height for a given ring size. For example,
> the RV25 is as high as the KW30, or RV30.
> For the rod you are building is using a NGC so
> you can certainly use the KW guides instead of the
> RV. The RV guide with the single leg in front
> supposedly reduces line slap against the guide
> braces going into the ring.
> Norm


Thanks Norm. I've just watched the KR concept vid from Anglers Resource. Amazing the difference it makes.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Adam S McClain (---.bla1.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
Date: May 07, 2019 02:22AM

herb canter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adam S McClain Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks for the input Herb!
> >
> > I'll be using the 5000h saltiga or the
> Expedition
> > 5500 with up to 150lb leader and the fg knot.
> >
> > Turns out I have a 25,20 and 16 in the KW
> Torzite
> > left over from a bungled order where they sent
> me
> > the wrong sizes and didn't want them returned..
> > Internet shopping at its finest :) Score!
> >
> > Think I'll work with these and save a few
> dollars
> > :)
> >
> > Whats the reasoning behind skipping certain
> > guides?
> >
> > Cheers
>
>
>
>
> So you're going to be using a 5500 Expedition or
> 5000H huh , man , you're one lucky guy lol . I
> agree about using up the KW Torzite you have
> leftover and a KW 25 is high enough and the ring
> size is large enough to work superbly so lets
> consider that the stripper . Now to answer your
> question about the reasoning behind skipping
> certain guides.
>
> A couple reasons for this, one is reducing weight
> and the other is to tame the line coils as fast as
> possible to get the line running straight as fast
> as possible , when you use guide sizes in every
> size this taming of the line coils takes a long
> time to happen since every guide only changes the
> line flow to a small degree because the ring sizes
> only gradually get smaller as you go along , not
> only does this prolong the time it takes to get
> the line running straight out toward the tip all
> those guides are barely making a a change as the
> line progresses forward & each guide used is
> adding unneeded weight .
>
>
> When you skip certain guides you are eliminating
> guides along the way that make very little change
> to the goal of controlling the line as fast as
> possible , think about a KW 30 then a KW 25 AND KW
> 20 , by the time the line reaches the KW 20 what
> has been accomplished ? Virtually nothing the
> line is nearly the same size as it was when it
> started out at the KW 30 with very little change
> because those 3 guides used together are all not
> only close in height but the ring sizes are still
> large, what you accomplish by using those three
> together is you add additional weight with very
> very little change in line coil diameter.
>
> Now when you use a KW 30 then a KW 20 then a KW 12
> not only have you eliminated the excess weight of
> the KW 25 AND KW 16 the line is tamed and coils
> are controlled much much quicker in the process
> because each guide makes a much bigger beneficial
> impact . You have three guides that accomplish
> the exact same task of what the KW 30,25,20,16 ,12
> would accomplish and that makes a much more
> efficient and lighter guide train as well .

Haha I have a wife that is understanding..even more so when I go fishing! ;)

Thanks for the clear explanation. Makes sense.

Im heading towards the Daiwa Exped for line capacity and its pretty colours lol. Medium stick bait outfit for Yellow Tail King Fish and Tropical expeditions

One thing I didn't think of is the ring ID in the torzite guides is greater than sic or alconite. So dropping down to 8's should be ok for 150lb leader

Now that I understand the NGC. 25, 20,16 isn't much of a reduction.


Thinking 25,16,12, 8,8,8,8 or 30,20,12,8,8,8,8 Daiwa Expedition has a bigger spool diameter than the Saltiga 5000. So maybe the 30,20,12 reduction?

Cheers

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 07, 2019 04:02AM

Haha I have a wife that is understanding..even more so when I go fishing! ;)

Thanks for the clear explanation. Makes sense. Im heading towards the Daiwa Exped for line capacity and its pretty colours lol. Medium stick bait outfit for Yellow Tail King Fish and Tropical expeditions , one thing I didn't think of is the ring ID in the torzite guides is greater than sic or alconite. So dropping down to 8's should be ok for 150lb leader .Now that I understand the NGC. 25, 20,16 isn't much of a reduction.


Thinking 25,16,12, 8,8,8,8 or 30,20,12,8,8,8,8 Daiwa Expedition has a bigger spool diameter than the Saltiga 5000. So maybe the 30,20,12 reduction?





Always a good thing to have an understanding wife , mine had no understanding so i had to get rid of her , now i take the garbage out whenever i da_ _ well feel like taking it out, AND i can go fishing . Anyways in comparing the torzite ring diameters to the alconites i don't consider it much of a difference even though Fuji publishes the differences & tries to make it a major benefit , to me it's not.

When i look them over with alconite guides with the same ring sizes which i have for comparison the differences are so small that it's not a factor for me. Now if you were comparing Fuji's SIC rings ( Not slim SIC ) but regular SIC the torzites do look considerably thinner when comparing inner ring diameters but with Alconite not so much , but alconite was always slimmer than SIC so no surprises there.

The real benefit of the Torzite guides is two fold in my eyes , the first is the fact that they're ridiculously lightweight but thats mostly contributed to Fuji's titanium frames which is the only material offered in the torzite ring options, but it has been proven that the torzite ring material itself is lighter. The thing that really appeals to me is that they're exceptionally slick/slippery and when you add that along with how ridiculously lightweight they're it's a winner.

I believe the below choices that you mentioned are very good , not a lot lost in efficiency with the below, can go with either.


25,16,12, 8,8,8,8 or 30,20,12,8,8,8,8

Don't know how far along you are in your build but if you got the reel seat and handle completed slap on the reel and check to see if everything feels right and start to get ideas on what guide fits where because we're just throwing ideas out there at this point . With rod building, changing ones mind during the actual building of the rod is common so take your time to make sure things go as well as they can go.

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Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: Adam S McClain (---.bla1.nsw.optusnet.com.au)
Date: May 08, 2019 12:39AM

Thanks Herb,

Haven't started yet just getting my order together. Big fan of the Torzite. Notice a big difference when fighting donkey fish on 15kg plus drag. Everything is feels smooth!

I've decided to go with size 10 runners.. Possible that I will run 200lb in reefy shallow water chasing GT, Coral Trout etc. ID on the 8 torzite is 6.4mm. My gut feeling is its a bit small for larger leader and knot.

I'll be putting it together next week if all goes to plan.

Cheers

Adam

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Re: RV and KW guide system.
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: May 08, 2019 12:38PM

OK Adam let us know how it turns out .

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