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Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: February 05, 2019 05:14AM

Here is where I am at 9ft light mod fast 2-6 lb 1/8 to 3/8 rated blank. Using Pac Bay Minima match with minima f runners. My figuring gets me a 20 match 10 match 4w or 5 choker and runners. I am concerned that going from the 10 to the 4 is too drastic. I have not tried the 5 as I don't have them and can not find any at the moment. Is this too much reduction in one step? Next concern is spacing of the runners. Trying for four to five inches between runners between choker and tip. To get there number of guides seems excessive. Although it looks good as far as distribution of stress on the blank. I will need 10 runners for 5 in spacing which is what I tried, 11 gets me 4.5 inch spacing. Leaning towards the 11 as the blank is so light. Need to get another 4w to see how much difference it makes

Thoughts

Try 5s for choker and runners instead of the 4s

Go with 11 runners meaning 12 with the choker for a total of 14 guides on the rod. Or stick with 10.Spacing would be from the reel 21 13 9 then either 5 or 4.5

If 5s area better way to go anyone know of a source for Tiblack f minimas. Cannot find more than three in stock anywhere.

Thanks.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Seth Johnson (---.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 07:22AM

Are you trying to make a spinning rod or a casting rod?

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 05, 2019 08:14AM

Going from 10 to 4 is not too drastic. Set up a #10 and then a few inches away set up a #4. The angle of drop will be slight and by that time the line is running in a straight line - not ovaling. Unless you need them for knot clearance, changing to a #5 won't alter that angle of drop by more than a single degree, if that.

The important thing is that you set it up and look at it. The line will tell you what to do. Trying to do this on paper or in your head doesn't work. The key to good guide set-up is in doing it. Again, the line path will tell you what sizes you need and where to place them.

..............

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 10:48AM

I would use a 5M guide in the reduction train followed by either 5F or 4wF runners all the same size. I think 14 guides is a little overkill, I would use 11 or at most 12. But that is your choice. You can experiments by using the various guide options and test cast and use the option that works the best for you. On longer rods the KR concept pushes the choke guide further out, so the reduction guide train becomes longer. By making the reduction train length longer with increasing rod length, it allows one to use fewer runners and place them where they are most needed. Use the KRGPS at Anglers Resources to get a good starting point for your guide layout. Most people do not realize that KRGPS places the choke guide from the stripper at a distance approximately equal to 0.42 X the distance from the stripper to the tip top. You can move the choke in or out a little to get both a good looking and good performing guide train.. Have you tried Utmost for the guides, they are located very close to PacBay, and if they can’t get them no one can.
Norm

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 05, 2019 12:26PM

I have unsuccessfully searched the net for objective tests comparing the actual, measured casting performance of different guide trains on a particular blank. Can you recommend any test reports comparing the casting performance of different guides and guide trains in feet and inches must we rely on feelings and advertising?

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: February 05, 2019 02:45PM

This will be a spinning rod. 8 lb braid with 6 lb flourocarbon leader. Knots should not be an issue with 4s Used the article in the library here in setting up new guide concept. Following that I am spot on as to placement and number of guides. Only the second rod I have done with the concept guide setup. So just a little unsure of how much to stray from guidelines. First rod I did fit the guidelines perfect and looked right without any adjustment. This rod has me scratching my head a bit.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 03:13PM

Eight pound braid ? Go with size 4 runners , i use 5 size runners on my 11 foot surf rods and never have any issues with braid 30 pound and under , i usually fish 15 and under actually and it has quickly landed all the surf caught fish with ease , even large redfish .,

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: ben belote (---.zoominternet.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 03:15PM

hi Phil..i don,t think your going to get an answer because their probably is none..but you did give a good answer yourself..i know that,s what i rely on for the most part..lol.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 03:22PM

I would go with the KR GPS not the NGC GPS if you want the best performing setup on a rod like you're building .


The link below is the KR GPS software and it's as easy as it gets , best thing about it is the recommendations are extremely accurate and work great.

[anglersresource.net]




Many use Minima guides when using this software , Norm has used it with the Minima's. My 9 foot inshore rod has 9 guides NOT including the tip top , your blank is 9 feet also so should work great.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2019 03:28PM by herb canter.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 05, 2019 03:32PM

The New Guide concept and the KR concept are two different animals. The KR concept was designed for use with braid and microguides. It utilizes high frame small ring reduction guides to rapidly choke and better control the line going to small low profile running guides. It performs extremely wel! The use of Minima M guides in the reduction train is very similar to using the Fuji KR concept KL-H guides, both are high frame small ring guides, having similar heights for a given ring size. So your use of light braid with microguides is perfectly suited for the KR concept. Don't use the New Guide Concept guide lines for setting up a KR concept guide train, and vice versa. Go to the KR GPS at Anglers Resource, to get a very good starting point. [anglersresource.net]
Norm

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 05, 2019 09:32PM

To Phil's question, and there were such tests and data in the very early issues of RodMaker, beyond a certain point you cannot gain any further distance by using different guide systems or set-ups. In a nutshell, a give rod blank is capable of casting a given weight/shape a certain distance. As you get past really bad guide set-ups, and closer and closer to optimum, there is going to be a point of diminishing returns in terms of casting distance. If you take the best implemented KR, NGC or 27X or Microwave system and compare, You will not find more than 1% difference in average casting distance. In the case of the OP, using #4 vs #5 runners isn't likely to reveal any practical difference. However, using #4's might make the rod balance better or feel more comfortable, etc. Good guide system set-ups have to be about more than just casting distance.

...............

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: February 06, 2019 02:40AM

Thanks for the tip on the KR concept. Need to do some final testing and tweaking but looks a lot better. The reduction train is actually very similar placement to what the new concept gave me. Replaces the choker in the new concept with an additional reduction guide. Make a difference I don't know but makes me think it will work better. One thing I find odd is the placement of the third reduction guide in relation to the choker. The distance between the two is greater than the distance between the third reduction and the second reduction guide. Other than appearance I assume this is ok as long as the load is disturbuted? Looks as if the reduction train and the runners are treated as two separate entities in this setup? The calculator also suggest smaller guides than I figured for reduction. 16 8 5. With what I have on hand I might have to go 16 7 5 should be ok? For the runners I will go with the 4s. I am leaning towards using 6. Will give me a total of ten guides for the rod. Blank is rather light through the tip with have about 42 inches after the choker to distribute the six runners. Initial testing looks doable but may need another runner. Trouble with a rod this length is I need to do all my testing outside. Hard to put a proper bend in a nine foot rod with eight foot ceilings. Once I get some better weather I will be able to give a thorough test and make my final decision. I am hoping I won't need another runner and will do as much tweaking as possible to avoid it. Appreciate all the advice and steering me to another way of looking at things.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: February 06, 2019 02:49AM

Just did some comparing looks like going 20 10 5 with minimas will be the way to go. The fuji suggested is actually a 5.5m which is same height as the 5 minima. The ten is the same as the fuji 8 and the 20 is just a fuzz taller than the 16. Which I think is better than going shorter. Not gaining a noticeable amount of weight.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: February 06, 2019 08:57AM

Michael as long as you have a line of site through the guides (bullseye) you can change the guide size to get the correct graduated spacing. It looks like you already figured it out with the 20. Your rod should kill it.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: February 06, 2019 10:40AM

Thanks for clarifying, Tom. I suspected as much but don't know enough about the subject to dismiss the possibility that certain guide trains cast the furthest or are the most accurate. There's nothing wrong with going for the prettiest rod - but tastes in beauty vary!

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 06, 2019 10:41AM

You will have no problem pushing the choke guide in or out a little to get a good looking progressive guide train. There is a lot of flexibility in putting a guide train together. For me a very simple way to check the alignment is to tape the guides in place and run the line from the reel through the guides and tie a light weight to the line, and let it hang from the tip. Now press the line against the bottom of the reel spool and look for a straight line from the bottom of the spool to the choke guide, and another straight line from the choke to the tip, with the line touching the bottom of each guide. A little bit of an angle going into the stripper is ok.
Norm

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 06, 2019 12:18PM

Casting accuracy is entirely in the hands of the person doing the casting. Guide systems won't have much of anything to do with that.

................

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: herb canter (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 06, 2019 01:44PM

Like Lance said, just get the reduction train guides to form a bullseye to the choker and you have assured yourself an excellent casting setup . Thats the main goal , the KR concept is about getting the line to run in a straight path quicker than you would see on a NGC setup so the stripper does tend to be closer to the reel than other guide train positioning , it tends to look a little more drastic but it's works great due to the stripper being much taller than typical which allows for a smaller ring diameter to be used.


Once you test cast it you will have no doubts about it and love it.

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Re: Guide Train Your Thoughts
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.drr02.mskg.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 15, 2019 07:27AM

I don't think I saw an answer to the question about spacing 4-5 inches on runners. Depending on the stress test, which will depend on the action, 4" near the tip and significantly more than 5 for the next guide from the choker is not unreasonable. The stress test is will determine the right number of runners.

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