I need som opinions on guide spacing. More specifically, running guide spacing.

How much deviation do you folks allow between the path of the line, and the curve of the blank, between running guides? Maybe an easier way to ask is ......... let's say the line is 3/8" away from the blank at each guide when the blank has no load on it.. Now with the blank fully loaded per CCS standards, how far away would you let the line get from concave surface of the blank? 1/2"? .... 5/8"? more than that? I hope that makes sense?

The reason I ask is .... I just got done using static load to place the running guides on a spinning rod I'm building. Spacing the guides so that the line never got more than an 1/8" further away from the blank than it was at one of the guides, I had 7 running guides on the rod. That's 7 running guides in the distance from the choke guide, to the ring of the tip top. Or 28 1/2"

Yeah, that's a lot of guides for that amount of blank. But let me explain several reasons why I went with the spacing I currently have. It's a light powered, extra fast action drop shot blank, that is 6' 10" long, rated for 1/8 - 3/8 oz, and 4 - 8# line. So It is not a powerful blank. Nor is it a robust blank. While I certainly won't be using the rod to horse fish out of heavy cover, or into the boat, I don't like playing a fish for long periods of time. It's just not good for them, and is especially not good for a fish that may be going into a live well until weigh in at the end of the day. Anyhow, there is a chance that I will be putting some pretty hefty stress on the rod from time to time. 3 - 5 lb smallmouth bass can pull pretty hard. I don't want the rod to blow up if a fish makes a sudden dive under the boat. Been there, done that, still have half a rod as a remembrance.

So knowing that the line's path closely following the curve of the blank lessens undue stress on the blank, I spaced the guides with that in mind. Another thing I did was look at the running guide set ups of the casting rods I've built. I space the guides on my casting rods so that the line doesn't touch the blank, when the blank is under heavy load. You could probably slip a sheet of paper under the line, but not much more. So what I did was, I measured the height from the bottom of the guide foot, to the inside of the bottom of the ceramic ring of the running guides I use on my casting rods. That distance is 1/8". I used that measurement as the basis for the 1/8 " deviation in the line's distance from the blank.

I figure if that's good on my casting rods, it's gotta be ok for my spinning rods. And lastly, the more closely the line's path follows the curve of the blank, the more of the blank's power is utilized.

I guess what I am asking is ...... am I going way overboard? This blank has an extremely light tip. Actually the upper 1/3 of the blank is extremely light powered. And it is for that reason, that I am concerned with the number of running guides I'd use, if I left it as is. I am using #4 Minima4 guides on this build, so they are super light weight, but still .....

Admittedly I am pretty stubborn about the way I do things. And I truly believe and have said many times, that one should build a rod they are building for themselves, the way they want to build it. But man that is a lot of guides.

What say you people? And please understand that in no way do t mean to be disrespectful or dismissive of anyone's opinion, when I say that I am not interested in how many guides one may put on this rod. I'm interested in the criteria you use when spacing running guides on a light powered spinning rod.

Any opinions or suggestions will be truly and greatly appreciated.

hi David..that sounds normal to me for an extra fast drop shot rod, 4" average spaceing..go light on finish in that part of the rod..

Does that mean 11 guides total on a 6’10” rod? That can be ok, but I think you may over thinking this a bit. For a spinning rod I try to get away with fewer guides, rather than more. I just checked my 6’ 9” ML XF Point Blank spin rod I built about a year ago. It has a total of 9 guides (3 transition and 6 runners) and the line follows the curve of the blank quite nicely when loaded. I have to admit I have never looked at the increased distance between the rod and line under a load condition,as a guide placement criteria. I just look to see if the line smoothly follows the curve of the rod when loaded. If it does I am good to go. My first runner from the tip top on this rod is about 9 to 9.5 cm, and the distance between guides progressively increases about a cm each till I get to choke guide. This gives me a nice set up that casts well and handles fish well. Caught an 8 lb red back in Sept on it as well as a small blacktip shark about 15 lbs. I have routinely caught bass in the 4 to 5lb range with no problems. Mock the rod up with different numbers of guides and see how it looks and cast. Then go with what you like. Hope this helps.
Norm

I built a similar rated rod for my son last year 1/16-3/8 4-10lb. Elliot blank 7 ft, 10 guides total. I felt I was trying to protect this blank as I'd never used one before, so I was pretty picky with the line path. 1st 4 from the tip 4"apart then gradual increase to 5" between choke and tipmost reduction guide. As my mentor (Red Green ) would say, "We're all in this together"

Ben, thank you very much for your response. I truly appreciate it.

I'm kind of thinking it isn't or shouldn't be out of the ordinary for a blank with the characteristics that this blank has. When I was performing the static load, I decided to do a check for action angle, just to see how fast the action is. I came up with an AA of 77 or 78, so it's definitely an extra fast action. I wish I had done an actual test for the IP of the blank at the time, but I didn't. I'm guessing the object I had hanging from the end of the rod to get the required amount of blank flex, weighed about 1 lb. That would give the blank an IP in the neighborhood of 454 grams. Definitely a light powered blank.

Norman, thank you very much for your response as well. I truly appreciate it.

Norman, I'm putting the Minima4 guides that I was asking so much about, on this rod. And yes., it does mean that I have 11 guides total, on this rod. I suppose I should say I have 8 runners on it, as the choke guide is considered a running guide. The reason I'm not really concerned about how many guides are on other rods, is because of the number of guides I have on the other spinning rods I've built. I built them on Pac Bay Quickline blanks. The Quickline blanks are rated for the same 1/8 - 3/8 oz weights as the NFC blank I am referencing here, and with the same extra fast action. ThePac Bay Quickline blanks have a listed AA of 78, so they are right where this NFC blank is, in that respect. The difference between the blanks is length, and IP. The Quickline blanks are 6'6" and have a listed IP of 552. If my guesstimate of the IP for this NFC blank, 454 grams, is fairly accurate, you can see there is a noticeable difference in the NFC blank's power.

I mention that because the Quickline blanks have the flex characteristics that I would normally associate with an extra fast action, mag bass blank. Meaning the tip gets into the backbone of the blank more quickly than it does on this NFC blank. I should say that the Quickline blanks are spin jig blanks, so I guess that characteristic should be expected? Anyhow ..... I have 6 running guides (counting the choke guide) on the rods built on those 6'6" Quickline blanks. And I spaced those guides in the same manner I described in my opening post. The Quickline blanks don't flex as much as you get away from the first 12" of the tip, as this NFC blank does. Less flex, equals more widely spaced guides.

As for the criteria I used for spacing the guides on this spinning rod, I only mentioned it because it falls in line with my philosophy for placing running guides on casting rods. But I really honk on casting rods. I haul fish out of heavy cover, and boat flip some pretty good sized fish, so I use the number of guides to help protect the blank from poor rod handling practices. So I don't know that I am over thinking it so much as I may being over protective.

I guess what it comes down to is that I have some fear about this blank. I'm only going to be using 6 or 8# fluorocarbon on the rod I build, and I will NOT be horsing fish with it, but that doesn't mean a rod can't break using that light of line. I tried increasing the spacing and got it down to where I would be comfortable with removing one of the guides, so I guess I will go with that set up. I'm just trying to learn more about guide trains, especially spinning rod guide trains, and the more opinions I get, the better.

Oh and Norman? You weren't kidding about how these Minima guides feel on a rod. While I can feel their weight, it isn't anything like a Fuji KW or KT guide. I marked the balance point on the rod prior to attaching and spacing the guides. The balance point only changed 5/16" from the rod with no guides, to the rod with guides. Amazing! Can't to get it wrapped and wet a line with it.

Anyhow ......... keep the opinions coming guys ...... how do you space the running guides on your spinning rods?

Thanks!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2017 08:54PM by David Baylor.

Lynn, thank you very much for the response. It is truly appreciated. We must have been typing at the same time lol

And yes!!! Protecting the blank is what I am trying to do. This thing is a different animal than I am used to. Even in spinning gear. I'm just concerned that I may be losing a lot of sensitivity, simply because I am being over cautious. Were this any other kind of rod I wouldn't be nearly as concerned with its' sensitivity. But IMO a drop shot rod has to have the most sensitivity you can build into it. But not without considering durability.

I have been fishing all my life, longer than a many of you have been alive, and have caught unknown numbers and species of fish of all sizes, but have never broken a rod due to fighting a fish. I have broken a number of rods due to accidents and stupidity, but not due to a fish. So I guess I do not feel inclined to protect a rod by using more guides than necessary. I know you broke a rod due to a fish,but that was unusually and it still may have broken no matter how many guides you used. I try to get the most functional rod I can,and use no more guides than I need. As I mentioned before, for a spinning rod I visually check for a straight line from the reel spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke to the tiptop, with the line touching the bottom of each guide. I then load the rod a check how the line follows the curve of the rod. Finally, I test cast. Everyone who fishes knows when a rod casts well, and if it does not feel, sound or perform right then it’s not. I have enough experience now that this rarely occurs.
As you observed the Minima 4 guides are amazingly light. Your entire set of guides will weigh less than a single ceramic stripper! When I first started using them a few years back, based on recommendations I read here, I was concerned about their overall durability and grooving resistance. But so far so good. I mainly use them on ultra light and light spin rods, and use Fuji KR guides on heavier spin rods. However, I have used the Minima 4 guides on some light inshore rods and they performed exceptionally well. I have also built a bunch of casting rods using Minima guides like KR guides and they also are very light and perform well, and gives the rod a better balance point.
Norm

Norman, happy new year, and believe me, I understand what you're saying about the functionality of the rod, I'll just say that part of functionality, is durability. I've never broken a rod while actually fighting a fish either. When the rod I referenced earlier, broke ...it happened so fast that I didn't have time to even begin to fight the fish. I was pretty much just holding on so I didn't lose the whole rod and reel over the side of the boat. I didn't even set the hook. So you're right .... no number of guides would have saved that rod.

Be that as it may, I pretty much know that the number of guides I have on this rod, is over kill. This is why I asked the question about how close other builders keep the line's path, relative to the curve of the blank. Getting an idea of that, is going to help me determine just how much overkill I may have going on.

Thank you for the response Norman. Once again, it is greatly appreciated.

As the saying goes "a picture is worth a thousand words"

Below is a link to a picture I posted showing the guide spacing and line path as it currently it. 10 guides total. 3 transition guides, 7 running guides

Any comments on whether or not I have some serious overkill going on here, will be greatly appreciated.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Tom, my apologies if using the photo section for pictures such as this, is frowned upon. If so, if you have the picture(s) .... I made a mistake and posted a picture that I didn't mean to .... anyhow .... if you have the pictures deleted, I will completely understand.

Again, all comments will be appreciated.

Oh, and please excuse the wrinkles in the sheet. It's one of those fitted sheets, and I have yet to figure out a way to fold them so they don't wrinkle. LOL

David, according to Steve Gardner six #4 micro guides equals one #6 guide in weight, so if you put twelve #4 guides on your rod that,s like putting three #6 guides on the rod. is that overkill weight wise..Tom Kirkman has said on more than one occasion that if he errs on the number of guides on his rod he would rather err on the side of too many..all my rods are dead..lol.

Looks fine! I certainly would not add any more guides. The KR GPS indicates using a total of 8 guides, which I think is at least one too few. So I think you have it nailed. Go out and see how it cast. Looks like it is going to do well.
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2018 12:02PM by Norman Miller.

Ben, thanks for the additional reply. Much appreciated.. And yes, I remember Steve posting that. I absolutely love how the rods I have with micro guides on them, perform. And my thinking of rather having too many guides versus not having enough, comes from something Tom posted in what may have been the first thread I ever posted on this site. I'm paraphrasing here, but he made mention that it wouldn't be a bad idea to add a guide or two near the tip of a rod, if poor rod handling practices were going to be used. That advice has stuck with me, and is the basis of my philosophy for spacing running guides. Better safe that sorry. And I will definitely heed your advice and go as light as I can with finish in that part of the rod.

As for all of your rods being dead .... I'm sorry to hear that lol. Thanks again!

And Norman, thank you for the additional response as well. It too is much appreciated.

And yeah, I'm in agreement with you. I am happy with the line path I currently have. I could probably go back and tweak it a bit and lose yet another guide, but I am going to keep it as is. There is a problem as far as me going out to test cast it though. It's the weather we're currently having. Well below freezing temperatures isn't the best environment for fluorocarbon line. Let alone fluorocarbon line on spinning gear. It's going to be at least a week before I can have any hope of taking her outside for a trial run

As to how many guides the KR GPS indicates using ..... I never did get that? I mean I understand that it's just a suggested number, but how can they suggest a number when there are so many variables that can change the number of guides that might be required? It's baffling to me.

And as with Ben, thanks again for your response. And a thank you to all that participated. Your comments are truly appreciated.

your welcome David. i tried looking at your pictures but couldn,t enlarge them..do i need to be ssigned in for that..thanks

Looks good to me. Oh yeah, get a net. Just kidding.

Ben, ya know ..... I don't know the answer to your question about not being able to enlarge the picture. Maybe you do have to be signed in, to do so?

LOL Lynn, .... get a net !! You bet my friend ........ it is going to be a longggg winter.

And thanks for the response.