First, I was reading this post: [rodbuilding.org] and saw that Geoff was talking about the Minima guides as if they were his product, but his signature was for Batson Enterprises. Is Pac Bay affiliated with or owned by Batson?

Second, I am having problems with a Fuji concept layout. If required, I may just switch up to different guides, but I have always had good success with concept layouts. The problem is with spacing. I placed the choke guide (held on with white masking tape) with the 27x method, and lined up the spool shaft on the edge of the table and this: [www.rodbuilding.org] is what I came up with. I'm pretty sure I have every guide size covered. The black and chrome are the same frames, and I verified that all matching ring sizes also match frame height. So the problem is that my best layout looks like (from the butt) 10", 6", and ~6.5" between guides. I could also go 10", 8", and 4.5". Neither are good layouts.

The thick white grease pencil marks are what I got using Pac Bay M-frame Minimas. So much better in terms of spacing, but I wonder about their strength. Their catalog says for light and ultra light rods. This rod will probably see a max of 4-5 lbs drag with 15 or 20 lb braid and a 6 to 10 foot 14 lb mono leader. Also, the same layout method was used, but I could bring the choke point in closer per the KR concept if I go with the M-frames.

So I'm looking for answers and suggestions. Are the M-frame guides up to the task of this amount of drag? In my mind, light and ultra light means roughly .5 to 3.5 pounds drag for 2 to 10 lb line. Am I doing something wrong in my concept/27x setup? Can I just adjust the spacing without adverse consequences? I'm guessing no to the last one, because the whole point of this method is to keep a straight line path for the line going through the reduction train.

Thanks for any help.

Randy,
Yes, the minima guides will work just fine.

Any more, cut down the number of guide sizes to about 3 sizes. Really little is gained by using more sizes.

Just as a thought - try a size 25,16,10 and 6 or 5 runners to the tip.

When I do a guide spacing, I put a heavy bend in the rod and simply put a guide where it is needed to insure that you have a guide to insure that you have the line follow the loaded blank.

Folks can use many different guide setups and guide spacing that can all work very well for a given rod.

Use the setup and spacing of your choice to do the job that you need to do with the rod.

Good luck

May you adjust spacing? Yes. Any setup formula (exc maybe Microwave) is a good starting point. I am not an expert on what the Minima guides will take for drag, but I expect they will be OK. Maybe someone with more expertise will chime in.

I suggest you do the following: Locate the first running guide at the 27X point. Then locate the size you think is right for the first reduction guide at about 20 inches from the reel face. I suggest a 20 is as large as you need for 20 braid. Then try either one or two more reduction guides at "logical" points in between, trying to acheive the bullseye line path. Most likely you'll like two more. Now, move to your running guides and space them all at about 5 inches apart. Now do stress test to fine tune the spacing. With a fast action you will most likely have the guiides near the tip about 3.5-4 inches apart. Slower actions will be more than this. Closer to the first running guide they will most likely end up farther apart than the first 5 inches you set. If you cannot get a good look under stress, (if you don't know what to look for, ask another question) you may add a guide and respace all the running guides exc the 27X. Once you get what you want, test cast. At this point you can change the size of the first reduction guide, any other reduction guides, and respace any guides, including the 27X. Most likely the moves will be small and have little effect on casting.

It looks like you are using all the same model guides, the V or Y type? The small running guides may be single foot fly guides to save a little weight. You only need one size running guide from the 27X first running guide right to the end.

Don't get hung up on formulas-use your common sense and logic.

Michael, I will try that with a 20 as the stripper and see what it yields. Yes these are all Fuji concept style Y guides. I can place the runners no problem, just can't seem to get a good spacing on the reduction. Also, my reduction train will either be size 4 micros or size 5 single footed guides. The Minimas I have for runners are micros, and due to the small insert, have plenty of room to pass a braid-mono connection. The aluminum oxide micros I have are a bit small for that I think. I have an UL crappie rod I'm building that those will be perfect on (4 lb line).

Oh, and this is a cheap build. It's a Mudhole CRB IS661M blank. Listed as fast, but acts more like a moderate taper. I think it will be good to throw out crank baits and as a light catfish rod. I built the same blank for my daughter and it casts really well. Hers was a bit easier, because I used Pac Bay v-frame Minimas. This worked out on hers because her reel is significantly lower to the blank than is mine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2016 02:21PM by Randy Weakley.

What size reel are you using, and how long is your handle? If you use minima M guides as stripper and reduction guides, and minima F guides as runners, try the Fuji KR guide placement software at Anglers Resource to get a good starting point for your guide train. Since minima M guides are very similar in height to the same size Fuji KL-H guides, the Fuji KR GPS works very well. I am guessing that you will use a minima M guide size 20 as the stripper followed by a size 10 M and a size 6 M for reduction guides. These are followed by minima F guides size 4 as runners. The stripper will be between 19 - 20" from the reel spool tip. Please remember that the KR GPS data is a starting point, and spacing can be tweaked for optimal performance as determined by test casting. I do not use Y guides or V guides very much anymore for new builds, been trending towards minima M guides, Fuji KL-H guides, and microwave guides for spinning rods because they are all light and well performing guide trains. I have spin irods set up with these different guide trains and let the person I am building for make the decision. Hope this helps.
Norm
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Thanks Norm. My biggest concern was with strength, because they are advertised as being for L/UL rods. BTW, the reel is an Abu Cardinal 20. Just emailed Abu Garcia a few days back, and its capable of 8 lbs of drag (there were no specs listed). So 4-5 should be well within its limits.

Very strange, because I've built with Fuji concept guides before and had a better experience. I'll try these on the UL I'm building. I have a set of micros to go along. Hopefully its a better layout with the smaller reel.

x10 On Norman's comment on the use of an M or match guide in a size 20 or 25 for a stripper guide.

I suspect that if you just start with a size 25 at 20 inches and a size 16 sv guide at 32 inches from the butt of the rod, everything else will just fall into place.

Be safe

Randy do not worry about strength, I have used these fishing for redfish and have caught some over 20#. The only thing I have concerns about minima guides is the possibility of line grooveing. However, have been using them for a few years now with no problems, only time will tell. The hard chrome I inserts are not as hard as any of the ceramic inserts. If you have concerns with hardness go to the Fuji KR setup. I used the Fuji new guide concept (NGC) for years with no complaints. When the microwave system's first came out I tried it and liked it very much. Fuji soon followed with the KR concept and when I tried it I found that I liked it more than the NGC. Both the microwave and the KR concept give excellent performance and have switch over to them. Overall I prefer the use of the KR concept, using either Fuji KL-H guides or minima M guides. The reason for this is the KR concept gives the builder more options and versatility then the one size fit all approach of the microwave system. Also if the microwave stripper or reduction guide breaks you have to buy the guide set to replace them.
Norm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with KR system, you set it up like the normal concept and then bring the choker into where the last reduction guide is. Then you reset the reduction train to a straight line path.

You are close. The stripper and reduction guides are higher with smaller ring sizes, and a little closer to the reel, the choke point is shifted back, and you are using more and smaller running guides. The overall effect is to lighten the guide train especially in tip section. This makes the rod feel lighter and more responsive. Because the line comes under control sooner (because of the smaller ring sizes) you get long smooth and accurate casts. I just like the way these KR rods feel. Others may disagree but to me these KR guide set ups are performance enhancers, whether you are using minima M/F or Fuji KR guides.
Norm

Randy,

If I have my history correct, Batson was started by Bill's father (Bob, I think), who previously worked at PacBay. Geoff Staples was affiliated with PacBay when the Minima Guides came to market and recently accepted a position at Batson, and therefore knows the guides quite well. I also believe that Batson and PacBay are still fairly close geographically.

If I'm completely off, I'm sure someone will correct me.

Joe

For what it's worth, I have done builds with a Fuji KL high frame stripper and reduction guide followed by the Fuji KB style guides.
Specifically TKLAG 20H, TKLAG 8H then TKBAG 6j to the tip. I could have gone smaller running guides but being Titanium and the customer was using heavier leader with a potentially bulky knot, I didn't worry.
It works extremely well.
The black coated stainless models of the same type are great value in my opinion.

Thanks Joe, was wondering if anyone would indulge that question?

I am going to go with the Minimas, just gotta do some research on the KR concept.

The best way to research the KR concept is to build a rod using it. You will never know first hand based on the opinions of others. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, this is what makes a custom rod special and unique.
Norm

Well I just meant research on guide placement. I gotta know the basics to build and test cast. The angler resource site has actual layouts to use. I may work off those initially and adjust by casting. Thanks for the help everyone!

Well I just meant research on guide placement. I gotta know the basics to build and test cast. The angler resource site has actual layouts to use. I may work off those initially and adjust by casting. Thanks for the help everyone!

Randy,
Actually, when it gets right down to it; most different guide systems still use essentially the same guide placement.

The reason for that is that a fishing rod simply needs a guide on each location on the rod, such that the line will follow the contour of the loaded rod blank.

The only real difference between guide systems is which guide size do I use at a particular location. But the locations themselves remain pretty constant for a given rod blank.

I think that ultimately, the object of most of the guide systems used today is to calm the line down as quickly as possible so that a small or smaller constant sized running guide can be used for more and more of the guides in a guide train.

With prior systems guide systems used 4,5 or 6 different sized guides. In many of today's guide systems, only two or perhaps three different sized guides are used in the guide train.


Be safe