I am currently wrapping the guides on a rod, and the bottom guide (which is a #20) is giving me fits. The guides are American Tackle Titans, titanium frame, which I haven't used before. The frame seems much more massive in gauge compared to other brands I've used. I'm using PacBay NCP thread size A. I can't seem to be able to not get a puckered appearance where the thread comes off the guide feet and meets the blank. I've encountered this a few times in the past, but was always able to smooth it out. Not this time. I haven't wrapped the smaller running guides yet, but I've never had a problem with anything size 16 or smaller, so I don't anticipate an issue with those. Am I using too much thread tension or what? Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Dave Sytsma

Did you file the foot of the guide so that there is a slight taper onto the guide foot and not a large "step up" onto the foot?

Robert,

Yes, all the guide feet have been tapered like I usually do; the problem starts about halfway up the taper after the thread has made the transition onto the guide foot and continues all of the way to where the wrap terminates at the ring. As mentioned, the frames are pretty big, bigger than the (okay, I'll drop the name) Fuji's I usually use. I'm not sure that even filing the sides of the guide feet (which I've never done since I've been building and am reluctant to do) would alleviate the problem. There's just a bigger tunnel between the edge of the guide foot and the side of the blank with these than what I've experienced previously. I have some size C in the same thread I can use, but I think the A gives a smoother finish.

I have no problem filing or grinding the side of the foot on larger guides it makes for a lot smoother transition from the guide to the blank.

Check the tension of the thread Try tighter then try it looser I never polish the feet I hit with 220 paper and it helps the the thread to ride up the foot Being smooth it may just keep slipping off

Bill - willierods.com

David, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were talking about the transition onto the foot of the guide. I'm not sure I understand the issue. A picture or two might help.

David,
Do what is needed to make the end of the guide razor thin with a gradual taper.
I use a 1x30 belt sander with relatively coarse sandpaper on it to accomplish this task. By the way, when I grind down the guide foot on these guides, I will sand as needed so that I am getting a near razor edge on the end of the guide foot. Then, when I am wrapping with the power wrapper, I never even have to slow down because the thread just flows up the guide foot for an easy finish.
I hold the guide at right angle to the sanding belt so that I achieve fine scratches across the face of the guide foot. These fine scratches act like thread guides and keep the thread in place and keep the thread from slipping down the guide foot.
When I sand the guide foot, I use the sander to make a constant taper from a very thin edge, right up to the guide. I also round the edges of the guide so that the guide edges have a nice smooth rounded edge to not cause any thread problems.

When the guide foot is placed on the rod, it should just have the appearance of a nice rounded hump on the round blank with no blunt edges or steep sides. If the foot is shaped like I described, the thread will nicely hold the foot tight to the blank with no gaps or puckering.

Also, as Bill mentioned, do you have your thread tension nice and tight. The thread tension should be tight enough so that you can just barely rotate the guide foot for alignment. If the guide moves easily in any direction, the thread tension is too loose.


I assume that when you are wrapping, you are starting on the blank and then the end of the guide foot and then on up the foot to the guide?

A picture sanding down a guide foot:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Also, as was mentioned earlier, a picture of your prepped guide foot and a picture of your thread issue will be of help.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2015 11:18AM by roger wilson.

so what you are saying is the base of the foot is to big for the rod an it disrupts the flow of the wrap thread ,
get a smaller guide / foot , smooth the sides of the guides feet just an idea

William Sidney
AK

here are some posts on prepping guide feet

[rodbuilding.org]

Bill - willierods.com

David I have read you original post a couple of time and trying to determine your problem. I may be wrong but I read it as though you are wrapping the guide from the ring and down onto the blank?? If this is what you are doing the thread will slip or run down the guide foot. You need to wrap from the blank up on to the foot.

And even though I think AT does a good job on their guide feet you may still want to clean up the transition a bit.

One other thing that I have found that makes wrapping larger guide feet easier is using Pro Wrap "B" size thread on those guides and go to A on the smaller ones.



Tom



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2015 08:00PM by Tom Wewerka.

Thanks for all the advice and ideas, guys. I just got home and found all these good posts. In an attempt to clarify, I've got all my underwraps done and I'm in the process of actually wrapping the guides on. I'm wrapping from the underwrap (leaving about 4mm showing in this case) up onto the guide foot starting from the blank and wrapping toward the guide ring as is customary. I pulled the #20 and #16 guides off (they were being held in place with tubing) and spent about 1 1/2 hours carefully re-grinding the feet on them because on further inspection, I didn't think the tapers of the guide feet were as good as they needed to be. When I'm prepping feet I usually use a Dremel tool and a couple of small files until I get them the way they need to be. I like Roger's suggestion to use a belt sander. I've got one of those Worksharp knife sharpeners which is essentially what Roger is using, and I'm going to try using that this week on another build. And both he and Bill have an interesting concept with leaving the miniscule ridges perpendicular to the foot so that the thread is held a little. I'm going to jump on these first thing tomorrow and I'll let you know if I've solved my problem by taking more off the feet. I sincerely appreciate all the great tips; they say you're never too old to learn, right?

Ok, guys. Problem solved. Special thanks to Bill and Roger for sharing their advice on the guide feet grinding. As I indicated, I always prep my guide feet, but never have encountered feet that needed this much shaping. I don't have a belt sander, but I do have one of those Worksharp knife and tool sharpeners (which is basically a miniature belt sander), put one of the coarse belts on and gave it the same treatment that Roger uses. I followed Bill and Roger's advice and left the small ridges on the feet from the grinding process to help hold the thread. It worked really well. Prior to this I always buffed the feet after I ground them with a Dremel tool to leave them smooth, but the ridges work better. All the thread looks great now, and that is the easiest that I have ever had it climb up on to the foot during the wrapping process. A new way for a new day. I would have posted pictures of the problem wraps, but my success with doing this on this site hasn't been good. Probably just me.

Tom Wewerka: after regrinding the guide feet I was able to use size A on all guides. I've been using Pacific Bay thread lately and like it. I have some size C in the same color I was using for the over wraps and I tried it on the big guide, but I thought the A looked a little better. I've tried a couple of test wraps of the new Fuji thread in the same color I was using. It wrapped nicely, but I didn't think it had the same luster as the PacBay. I'll spend some more time with it and see if it grows on me.

Roger, I would like a little more info on the tool you created with the scrap blank to hold the guides during grinding. It was a little hard to see clearly in the photo. If you can elaborate on what you created, I'd appreciate it. I've been using a 1" plastic coated Irwin spring clip. It holds the guide just fine, but it is more cumbersome than what you created. Thanks very much.

Dave Sytsma

David, thank you for the feedback. So often many of the guys here on the forum offer suggestions based on their many years of experience and never hear back as to how things turned out.

Roger and Bill are spot on about grinding the foot down and happy to hear that solved your problem.

I wanted to mention a little more on the thread. Doing the test wrap that you did is the right way to see what your rod is going to look like. I recently did a test for a rod that i wanted a certain shade of Garnet. Using thread from three different manufactures that called their thread "garnet" gave more than three results. If you test nylon, with and without CP and then Color fast you will get different results from each test wrap.

I don't think you can just go with one manufacturer of thread as results as you found out vary. Thread is inexpensive and almost every time I place an order for something I add a few spools of thread just to see how I like the color and performance. Also, like you saw, I am having a hard time getting to like Fuji thread. Already two spools have found their way to the circular file. On the garnet test I used the Fuji over a chrome guide foot and because it is smaller in diameter the chrome showed through no matter how I applied it. I switched to Fish Hawk (My favorite color for Garnet) and it turned out perfect.

Tom