Hi all,

This is the second thread I've started as a new member to this web site. And I've gotta say that from reading through past threads, that this place is a wealth of knowledge for both those new to rod buidling like I am, and even for those that are seemingly quite experienced. I love the willingness to help that some members show towards us "newbies" In the other thread I started I got more than a few tips and recommendations that were very helpful. And I'd just like to thank those people once again. Your thoughts are very much appreciated.

In my other thread I was asking for opinions of two different blanks that I was considering using to build a pitching and flipping rod for bass. I also asked for recommendations of other blanks that I may want to look at. To make a long story shorter, I decided to go with a blank other than the two I was initially considering.

The blank I've chosen to go with is a Phenix M1 series MX72H. It's 7' 2" long and is rated for 10-25# line and according to Phenix's web site is rated for 1/4 - 1 1/4 oz lures. (Mudholes catalog and web site shows lure weight rating at 1/2- 1 1/4 oz.) the action is extra fast. I know through doing searches of past threads on this web site, and through general knowledge I've aquired over the years, that guide train weight plays a major role in a rod blanks responsivemess, and sensitivity. And that is what I am looking to achieve in this, my first complete rod build. I want a sensitive rod that fishes at least as well, and hopefully better, than any rod I have had to date. I haven't had any truly high end rods in the past, and I'm not saying that the one I build will be truly high end once finished, As a reference point, a G Loomis GL2 and a Shimano Crucial are the two rods that I would consider the highest end rods I own, As you can see, neither of them can be considered truly high end. I just want the one I build, to be better.

I'll be using Fuji guides. My questions concern the weight differences between different guide frame materials and their relative effect on the finished rods sensitivity. I know that ring construction and ring material play a roll in the weight of a guide, but in doing all the research I can, I've come to believe that ring material weight plays less of a roll percentage wise, than what the frame is made of, and how it is constructed. Am I correct in feeling that way? Also, my understanding is that Alconite's toughness allows the ring to be of a thinner diameter than an SIC ring, and would therefore be lighter. Is my understanding correct?

The ring materials I am considering are SIC and Alconite. I understand that Torzite rings would be considerably lighter than SIC or Alconite rings, and that it would represent a higher percentage of weight saving, but it is just way to costly for me to even consider.

The guides I'm taking into consideration are Titanium frame with SIC rings, SS frame with Alconite rings, or possibly Titanium alloy frame with Alconite rings. I'm assuming 10 guides plus the tip top. There may be more or less depending on the results of a static load test. Sizes will be 12, 10, 8, 7, 6, and 5, I'm figuring on one each of the 12 - 6 and 5 size 5 guides as the running guides, I guess what I'm looking for is opinions on if the sizes I've choosen seem correct, and how much of a difference in sensitivity there would be between guides in question? Do you feel the sensitivity would be easily decernible, or would I barely be able to feel the difference?

One of the other possibilities I am considering is K series guides with Titanium alloy frames, and Alconite rings. I have a couple of concerns with this particular guide that I hope can be addressed. My first concern is that they're all single foot. Being a pitching and flipping stick that will invariably see time fishing a frog, it will at times have 65# test braided line on it. It will have a lot of pressure put on it at times. Will a single foot guide as a butt guide and guides lower in the guide train be able to take that kind of pressure?

My second concern, although considerably less than my concern about only having a single foot, is that the largest size they come in is size 10. I realize through reading past posts on this website, that butt guide size isn't as critical on a casting rod and that using a size 10 as a butt guide won't present any particular problem. MY question is, how much will I have to adjust the size of the guides I was planning on using in a different series of guides? I assume I'd have to reduce the sizes as they get closer to the running guides. If so, would I just have to step them down one size each?

In closing I gotta say that I love being a member of this web site. The amount of knowledge I've aquired through reading past threads and the participation I've gotten from members in my own thread is invaluable. I did a lot of reading about rod building before I joined this web site, and there is no way I could have learned some of the things I've learned thus far, without the posts of this sites members. I look forward to learning more, and only hope that I can someday be as valuable of a contributor as many of the members clearly are.

Thank you in advance for any responses or suggestions I may receive in answers to my questions. I love this place !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2015 09:08AM by David Baylor.

I would try TKWAG 8 then a 6then a TKTAG 5's or 4's Have fun and enjoy.

Robert, thank you very much for the suggestion. I didn't consider the double foot KW because it was listed as a spinning guide in Mudholes catalog. I know what they say about assumptions, but I assumed it may not be strong enough for use as a butt position guide on a heavy power bass casting rod. My reasoning for thinking this is that spinning guides recieve pressure from a different direction than casting guides. I'm probably over thinking it and they'd probably be plenty strong enough for what I'd be using them for. True?

I like the idea of using the Titanium alloy frames with Alconite rings because I suspect they may be lighter than a comparable guide with an SIC ring. Perhaps someone else can tell me if suspicions are correct? Lighter is better, and even if they aren't lighter than a comparable SIC ringed guide, they're surely lighter than a SS framed guide with the same Alconite ring material.

As for the size guides recommended. Would using a 10 in the butt guide position followed by an 8, then a 6 and then 5's for the remainder of the guides be an unnecessary size progression, or am I just over thinking it again? I don''t want it to seem as if I'm dismissing your suggestion. I'm just trying to learn.

Once again, thank you very much for the suggestion. I'm feeling better about how this build is going to turn out, with each and every post I've gotten. All of them have been very helpful. Other members please feel free to comment. The more information I have to draw from, the I'll further my education in rod building.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2015 11:45AM by David Baylor.

Remember just because they offer guides in all sizes doesn't mean you have to use each one of them to go from point A to point B.

That's right. The guides aren't stacked up against each other so using fewer sizes actually gives you a straighter line path at less weight.

.............

Robert Tanner Wrote:
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> I would try TKWAG 8 then a 6then a TKTAG 5's or
> 4's Have fun and enjoy.

David,

I agree with Robert. No need for a 12 mm striper then stepping down with progressively smaller guides. The line follower on a casting reel is, say equivalent, to a 6 or 5 mm guide opening. And when the reel is disengaged it isn't moving on most reels. Go with a 8 mm striper, then 6 mm transition guide and 4 or 5 mm runners and you will be fine.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

Chester and Tom, thank you both very much for your comments. I was fairly certain that Robert's suggestions had me on the right path. My pondering was based on the multiple sizes of guides in the guide sets I used when replacing guides on my other rods, and my general lack of knowledge when it comes to guide sizes and how they effect a guide train's performance. Actually, the guide sizes I quoted in my original post were taken from an existing guide set that Fuji sells, but with a slight modification when it came to the running guides and the guide just before the running guide.

Understanding of the benefits of a light and properly spaced guide train, which I think I have, is fairly easy. But I feel that the total understanding of a guide train and all of it's components, is probably the most difficult part of building a peak performing rod.

Tom and Chester ... based on your lack of comments on my questioning the strength of the KW guide frame, I will assume that it is a non issue for its intended use. If that is in fact true, then that is a very comforting thing. That means that blank choice is taken care of, and guide train is taken care of. I know which reel seat I'm going to use (just have to determine the proper size) and I know what my handle grips are going to be made of. Now I just have to pick a metalic thread color that comes as close to the color of my guide frames as possible ..... I've never seen one of the TKW or TKT guides in person, so if anyone has a suggestion, I'm all ears ...... or eyes as it were.

Thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to help me in my quest.. I truly do appreciate it. Once I get off here, I'm going to be doing my taxes. Only this time I'm looking forward to it. The refund is going to fund this rod build. I can't wait to place my order. E-File here I come :-)

Use a 12, an 8 and then 5's on out, assuming 5's are large enough to do what needs to be done. You don't need all those in-between sizes.

..................

Thank you very much Tom. I'll adjust my material list accordingly.

This place is awesome.

You know you can go with the pac bay guides that use no ring. Much less expensive as well as lighter.

Hundreds of rods have been built with these guides with no particular issues with grooving or anything else.

You can certainly go with more expensive and heavier guides if you like, but why. I would go with the double footed guides for the first two and possibly three guides and then with single foot for runners to the tip.

Basically, any guide set you choose will work just fine to get the line from the reel to the tip. It is up to you to decide on what you want to spend for the guide set and what you hope to obtain with one guide set verses a different guide set.

Good luck

Weight savings in the guide train don't result from extra research into the various weights of different manufacturers frames. There are differences to be sure but they will be minimal in "most" cases. Weight savings come from 1) Deciding how small you are willing to go 2) Making a decision about demands on the rod and choosing single or double foot reduction train guides. 3) Choosing a short (2 or 3 guide) reduction train, usually high-frame rather than a Cone of Flight and 4) Choosing any Titanium over any Stainless.
The lightest 7'2" rod you can build will probably be a split grip (carbon), split reel seat, no foregrip, trimmed barrel-thread, 2-guide reduction train using high-frame, small-ring TITANIUM guides, followed by size 3 TITANIUM runners. This is just an example of the "extreme", Not hoping to start a competition here, just pointing out how far a newbie CAN go if weight is the only issue.

Before I address the additional repsonses, I'd like to correct an oversight. Don ... thank you very much for your post. As we've discussed rod building aspects in another post, and have been "on the same page" as far as what I'm trying to achieve, your recommendations and opinions are something I will definitely take into consideration. I didn't mean to miss your post. My apologies.

As for the other helpful and educational recommendations from Roger and Jim ... thank you both for taking the time to respond to this thread. I truly do appreciate it.

Roger, while looking for guides, I looked at pretty much every guide that would be applicable to the rod I'll be building. I did see the Pac Bay guides that you mentioned. And while I have no doubts that what you say about them is true, they're too much of an unknown for me at this stage of my rod building endeavours. Being new to rod building, I'd feel more comfortable using a guide with a ceramic ring, because other than when I was very young, I've used rods with ceramic rings in the guides pretty much all my life, I'm sure that you can understand me being aprehensive in using a guide that I'm not at least a little bit familiar with. I do thank you for the suggestion though.

I have plenty of spare rods laying around, and the ones I don't turn into reamers, I'll someday give those guides a trial run. Just not on this rod.

Jim, I understand what you're saying about the minimal weight differences between different frame materials. As you said, and as I do understand, the weight difference of even a 1 size smaller guide is going to be more than the weight difference between frame materials of the same size guide. But I am to believe, and it's definitely logical, that any weight you can save in the guide train is going to result in a more responsive rod. From what I've gathered from reading past posts (my searches of this forum have been fairly extensive) and from reading books and articles on rod building ..... using the lightest frame type and frame material, coupled with the lightest ring (as long as that ring is structurally sound) is what a builder should shoot for if they are trying to maximize a blank's performance. At least that's been my comprehension of what I've read. Would I be comprehending it correctly?

Based on the responses I've gotten, and on some additional reading on the subject, I'll definitely be using a short reduction train, proably two guides, and the rest of the rod will be either #4 or #5 guides on the remainder of the blank. I plan on using double foot guides for the reduction train, and single foot guides for the remainder of the rod. And I am definitely using Titanium frame guides. Probably with Alconite rings. Although Torzite does keep popping into my head though. lol

The rear grip will be split, with EVA foam as the grip and butt cap material. A small EVA reverse tapered foregrip. I was considering a Pac Bay split reel seat, but in trying a rod with that seat on it, it felt uncomfortable in my hand. I could probably get used to it, but I think I'd need to spend an entire day actually fishing with that type of seat, before I'd give it any further consideration. So I'm going to go with an Alps MVT reel seat. Guide wraps will use black size A Pro Wrap thread, with small silver metalic trim bands. Winding checks will be dimpled aluminum. Silver in color.

Sorry about posting the complete material list. I got carried away and I couldn't stop. lol I am really excited about taking on this build. I hope the components I've chosen (with a lot of help from you members) for this rod will result in great rod. As OCD as I am about finish work, I have confidence that I can produce a rod that I can be proud of.

Thank you all once again for all your help. I wouldn't be this confident about his build, without your input.

Very Sincerely,

David Baylor.

If sensitivity is your goal you should look into the line that best transmits tactile sensations. A line with "memory" - doesn't lay straight - or a line with a lot of stretch will nullify any advantage the most carefully selected rod components can provide.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2015 09:03AM by Phil Ewanicki.

If sensitivity is your goal you should look into the line that best transmits tactile sensations. A line with "memory" - doesn't lay straight - or a line with a lot of stretch will nullify any advantage the most carefully selected rod components can provide.

Phil, thank you for your response. I definitely agree that various line types and their accompanying characteristics, have a profound effect on the amount of information that reaches the rod. The more information reaching the rod, the better the rods chances of transmitting that information to the user. While I'm new to rod building, I'm not new in understanding the benefits and drawbacks of each type of fishing line, and how to apply them to individual fishing situations.

Line isn't all that much different than a rod's blank, in that it must be a balanced package of materials and characteristics, in order to perform up to its true potential.