Russel,

It has been said, by others, that they can set up a rod with guides in a spinning position, stress test the blank to adjust their location, and then turn the stripper guide upwards (and possibly, but not necessarily, a transition guide) to create a spiral layout and that the layout will be exactly the same as if they laid out a spiral and stress tested the rod. This seems completely illogical to me for a variety of reasons elaborated upon in the various questions I posed in my previous posts above.

Your statement that every blank has a natural line path sounds good in theory, but what exactly does that mean when we think about it. Can the line path naturally along the blank without guides? Not that I am aware of. If we add a single guide at the tip and string the line from the reel through that one tip guide do we now have a natural line path? Yes, a straight line from the reel to the tip no matter how the blank is bent or loaded. If we add a second guide half way between the reel and the tip, does the line path naturally? Yes, two straight lines. A third guide? Yes, three straight lines.... Ten guides? Yes, ten straight lines. So what exactly does a natural line path mean? If I cork screwed twenty guides around the blank twice would it be a natural line path? I don't know what purpose it would serve but yes a natural line path from guide to guide, but are these paths desirable? Now there's a question. Here's an even better one. Are some paths better than others?

So let us get back to the premise at hand. If one can truly place all the guides on the 180 axis and determine a theoretically ideal location for the guides then one must assume that either A) the line path is a factor in this determination or B) line path is not a factor in this determination. The premise that a builder can locate a stripper on the 180 axis and then rotate it to 0 axis requires choice "B" to be true, that line path has no part in determining guide location. This goes against commonly accepted practice.

I think what can be inferred from all of the posts above was that someone initially gave a quick answer to the original poster's question that was not well thought out or possibly not worded well. I was willing to accept the original response for what it was, but then a second person piped in and responded (with probably considerably less thought) that this is exactly what they did also! This particular poster has a habit of piggybacking on other people's posts so, giving the benefit of the doubt, I repeatedly queried this second poster to justify their technique in a way that made logical sense. I felt that answer was never given.

Russel, you wrote "On a spiral build, compared to a normal conventional build, I find I can usually get away with less different sized guides and often less total guides," Your observation basically supports my contention that there are differences in the layout between a spinning build and a spiral build. In my eyes, we're in total agreement, but maybe just using different words to express our thoughts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 02:41PM by John E Powell.

Hay John

You are turning every thing I have said AROUND

I set guides up cause WHY SET THEM ON TOP when they will be brought to the 180 One step skipped
And use at least one LESS guide in the 180 spinning possition
Then static test get the spacing that is liked
Bring the butt guide up and ANY OTHER GUIDES NECESSARY
And with the line in the guides STATIC TEST AGAIN and adjust the guides

I do not do what you say !!!!
Every thing is tested And retested to be sure

Hay you PRESSED that botton ARE YOU SO GOOD ???? I dought it The last time I walked on water I got my feet wet Do yours stay dry @#$%& I wish I knew it all

Bill - willierods.com

From my limited understanding and practical abilities in rod building, this is what I was taking from Russel's comment: fewer guides because you don't have to keep the line off the top side of the blank, it's not there anymore. As for the using fewer different sized guides, I understand that to mean that since the butt guide and transition guide(s) handle line flow and control from the reel to the running guides, you can get down to your runners in fewer guides. I could be wrong, or only a little correct here but I'd like to hear from Russel on that.

There have to be differences between the two builds, line from a spinning reel doesn't start from the top side of the blank and transition to the bottom. That being said, it would stand to reason that once the line from the reel is under control, the layouts would be the same or similar enough to the point of no differentiation needing to be made between the two from the point of the runners onward to the tip of the rod.

It's sooo easy to set these up, but so many make it unbelievably confusing.

It's sooo easy to set these up, but so many make it unbelievably confusing.

John, "natural line path" were your words...not mine. Close enough in any regards. I would define it as the way the rod bends when a line is tied to the tip (only) and the blank is loaded by a weight suspended in free air. Basically the way we fish a cane pole. IMHO anything else we do to a blank...from guides to grips to reels....only degrades from what the blank can do as a "cane pole".

Not much point in commenting on other parts. It is what it is and you will find such on any forum. As long as folks aren't using a free venue to promote financial gain I won't take offense. Advice here is free and you can assign any value to it you wish. I will say that you started you post as if you had little knowledge (and then it became clear this isn't your first rodeo) so that might have been a factor.

Adam, you are reading me correctly. If I was building a spinning rod I would feel the need for more different sized guys despite the lack of a need to keep the line off the blank. In a spiral build, once the line is on the 180 side, static testing shows I can often get away with all the guides being the same size! Maybe I might need one or two to be a different sizes but not always. I don't think there is anywhere the same need to "get the line from a reel under control" with a convential reel as there is with a spinning reel.

I think anything said has to be taken in context. With that in mind I fish salt water, typically light line classes, and for fish capable of 200+ yard runs under maximum drag pressure. I suspect laying out guides to "follow the natural curve of the blank" would be a lot less important for most.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Billy

You are right That is why I set them up Then put the rod aside -- Wondering why it was so easy Thinking I must have done some thing wrong
Butt I never do

Bill - willierods.com

Thanks for confirming that I understood the concept, it's always nice to know some of what I have read here is making it's way into my grey matter!

Russel,

One person said they did something that didn't seem intuitively correct. I thought it was odd, if not interesting, but didn't write anything because it was only one post. Then a second person wrote they did the same thing. The confirmation of what I felt was wrong peaked my interest; two people said they did the same thing. I wondered, am I commented early on, that it seemed like a lot of unnecessary work and that locating guides for a spiral is very easy. There was a response that what they did was not extra work, and an inference was made that it might even be easier than what I do. I initially gave the benefit of the doubt with no agenda other than to ask questions to learn about what they do. When my questions went unanswered I looked for a reason why. After two pages of avoiding answering my questions or making a clarifying statement I came to a conclusion based upon the events and made a post. Only after calling this person out was a clarifying statement made. It should have been made days ago.

Bill,

I will accept your post (second from the top of the page) as your amended procedure, this is not the first time you've commented on a thread without fully understanding what the previous posters have written about. I asked a number of questions in great detail and only after three pages of posts back and forth and basically calling you out have you repositioned yourself and offered a clarification. Why does it take 40+ posts for you to make a clarification that should have been made early on?

I don't pretend to know it all. I rarely ever comment on particular subjects unless I feel I have a great deal of knowledge on that subject. For instance, I don't comment on Bass, Fly, Offshore, Spinning, Surf, Panfish, Centerpin, Float, Steelhead, Drift or Musky builds just to name a few. As to Spiral wraps, my first was back in '79 or '80 and I've serviced a charter fleet building and selling hundreds of spiral wrapped trolling rods to professional fisherman over the years. If you want to deflect what has transpired in this thread by making the accusation that I know it all and you're the common builder who admits he doesn't, all anyone has to do to see through this deflection attempt is do a search using our names to see the variety of threads we post on. I post on a few subjects I know well, you seem to have an opinion on almost everything. Search results don't lie.

Respectfully,

J Powell



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2014 01:07PM by John E Powell.

Personally I wouldnt say fewer guides is a motivator for me and in fact I probably use the same amount of guides on a spiral wrap as I would a conventional. It's being able to use smaller guides that allow me to not worry about line rub that I find attractive.

Line angle under load tells us that whether the guides are on top or bottom the angle is the same. One pulls away from the blank. One pulls down into it. So in theory, yes, you can get away with fewer guides on the belly because your pulling away from the blank but your not addressing line path and in fact may even be creating sharper angles by using less guides. Sure, depends on the blank, speed etc. But in general, less posts means a saggy bridge.

When I talk to a potential customer about spiral wraps one of the things I do to illustrate things is I show them the line under load as it pulls down away from the blank on a spiral wrap with micro runners. Then I turn the rod over and pull the line into the blank showing how close the line gets to the blank and in some areas may even be touching. It opens their eyes. You can do this with their factory rod too.

I hope the poster here looking at spiral wraps for bass rods gets into them. I've really enjoyed fishing and making them myself.

Billy Vivona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's sooo easy to set these up, but so many make
> it unbelievably confusing.


I couldn't agree more.

Adam

That is why there is a Static Test - Yes No ??
Is that not to show how the line flows along the blank to make even pressure along the blank
With guides on top trying to keep the line off the blank you will add more guides I would think at lest two more

Turn that blank over and static test you can loose at least - Some times two - guides Lighter tip better performance Makes sence to me ???

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2014 04:38PM by bill boettcher.

Bill,

Absolutely, static testing tells us.

In my experience I end up using around the same amount of guides. Built a couple early on that had fewer guides and I didnt see the gains you have but just prefer the way the line looks under load when I dont drop a couple.

Your right though and reminds me to not get content. I'll keep investigating. ;)

I do myself like the look of one or two more guides - But I force myself to take one or two off and then respace
Too each his own With the lighter guides being made now Does it make much of a difference ????
But --- builders are always looking for lighter rods

Bill - willierods.com

I am a newbie and just wondering does it matter which way the spiral goes??? Since I fish left handed to me in my mind the spiral should turn down to the left side of the blank. That's just what seems like would look/feel proper to me. Does this effect any part of the rod action as far as roll or twist???

It doesn't affect roll off or twist from what I understand. What it does do is protect the guides by having them on the handle side so that when you put the rod down, it's not resting on the guides that are sticking out to one side of the blank. Make sense...?

Yes thanks.

This may be a dumb question but I'm just building my first rod and am new to all this (including this site). So please bare with me. In reading this I've heard the term "simple spiral". What is this and how many different spirals are there. Also what I am getting from this is there is no set way for guide spacing (am I right?). But what should someone like me who has never wrapped either way start with? I really like the spiral concept and want to use it but I dont want to do it wrong. Any and all help would be appreciated. Any simple tips with basic rod building will also be greatly appreciated. I've read Rod Building Guide by Tom and watched countless vids but I know there is a lot more to it than that.
Thanks to all.
God bless,
Email if you have anything, anything at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2014 02:45PM by Chris McLemore.

A simple spiral is exactly what its name hints at: simple. You set up your first guide, then rotate the rest of the 180* at the same or similar spacing as you normally would, then add a guide at 90* to the first guide on the handle side of your rod, halfway between the first guide (on top of the blank) and the second guide (on the bottom of the blank). This guide merely serves to keep the line off the blank as it passes from the top side to underside of the blank. Ideally, you should aim to use the lowest guide you can in order to have the line flow as smooth around the blank as possible. It also doesn't need to be a double-foot guide as far as stress caused by the line, however, since there's a chance it might incur a little more strain from being set down, you may want to go this route anyways. Lastly, you can end up spacing the underside guides further apart (more like a spinning rod) than you would if the guides were on top.

As for what you should start with, I have no idea. Everything I just wrote is strictly speaking from what I have read here and watched in videos. You're absolutely right that there's more to it, there's no substitute for practice and experience. That being said, take the advice that was given to me when I was asking these exact questions. Lay out your guides and tape them on the blank. Do some test casting with them and see how you like it. Tweak their positioning a bit to see what kind of differences you notice. Once you're happy with how it works, start wrapping and finally, coating your wraps. Worst case scenario is that you might have to redo a guide or two. Unless you're a professional angler or are entering the rod in a competition that grades it on looks, don't worry about it. Measure twice, cut once.

Have fun!