Hello,

This may be a long post, but probably best to give as much detail as possible? Anyway, here is my problem:

Yesterday I was testing some brand new Pro-Wrap metallic thread for a Tiger Wrap on a scrap blank. Had the under-wrap (regular black & metallic gold) epoxied and turning on the dryer. Went to check on it about an hour later and found the epoxy to have a wrinkled, wavy, look as if it had shrunk away from itself? Have never seen something like that before. I am very careful regarding contamination when I wrap and finish.

My wrapping/finishing table always has a spray bottle of 91% alcohol which I use to remove any oil from my hands before I wrap. It is also my habit to wipe down the rod blank, thread scissors, razor, and burnishing tool with alcohol and let dry sufficiently before and after every use. I also do the same for the thread guide in my rod-wrapper as well as my mixing cups and mixing utensils. So I did a mental check-list of any mistakes I could have made. All I could come with was the possibility that either my new burnishing tool or set of syringes, (first time using both), may have had some sort of contamination that I overlooked?

So this morning I took out my old plastic burnishing tool and syringes and did the following thread wraps:

1. Regular black with metallic gold burnished Tiger-wrap style
2. Regular black with metallic gold un-burnished
3. Single wrap of regular black
4. Single wrap of metallic gold

Applied my epoxy and within 30 minutes noted the following:

1. Regular black with metallic gold burnished Tiger-wrap style = Wrinkled finish
2. Regular black with metallic gold un-burnished = Wrinkled finish
3. Single wrap of regular black = Smooth normal finish
4. Single wrap of metallic gold = Wrinkled finish

So I took out the 12-color box of metallic Pro-Wrap and did a short wrap of every color. Measured, mixed, and applied epoxy as normal. Within 30 minutes I noticed that the finish over the two metallic gold colors, 9130 and 9160, had taken on that wrinkled and wavy look. The other 10 colors had a smooth and normal finish. I will try to put some pictures on the photo page if I have the chance, but right now at a loss for words? What am I doing wrong if anything?

All the thread is brand new and looks normal upon inspection. Pretty bummed out about it since I used up the space on my nice blank, space on which I had planned to display sample tiger wraps instead of sample trouble-shooting wraps…Any help or insight into this problem is much appreciated.

Since the metallics usually have a metallic filament wrapped around a nylon core, it can take a little while after applying finish for maximum penetration into voids in the thread to be penetrated and filled by the finish. This may be what is happening in your case where the initial finish application gets sucked into the thread after maximum saturation occurs. You could try checking the appearance on wraps using metallics after ten or fifteen minutes to see if more finish needs to be applied to fill and level the look. Another alternative is to use gentle heat to thin the finish (I use an embossing gun) on the thread for finish penetration into the thread and then apply more finish if necessary.

A thin coat of CP might cure this problem.

chad,
I suggest that you take the colored thread that is giving you the wrinkled finish and return them to the vendor explaining your problem.

The fact that 8 out of 10 colors were fine would seem to indicate that there is a manufacturing defect in the thread spools of the two colors tested.

Return the thread and ask the vendor to run tests on these as well as random samples of the same colors from other spools to see if you have received a bad sample of a particular manufacturing run, or one color that is always bad in final finish.

Be safe

The thing about this that puzzles me is that I've followed this forum since the Pro Wrap threads were introduced and have never seen any comments of finish problems with it before. I have used about 7 colors of Pro Wrap metallic and have never had a finish problem. The only time I had an unusual problem, and it was wavy/fish-eyes, was when my rod fell out of the dryer after a few hours causing the finish to be scuffed up and I tried to salvage it by using a lot of heat. The heat smoothed the scuffs but caused the uneven finish, which had to be sanded and redone.

I never use alcohol in the way you do. I don't wash anything down with alcohol. I make sure my hands are clean and I don't have any oil around my wrapping area and don't use wrapping tools for other jobs.

You are not using heat after applying the finish, are you? As I have shown, excessive heat can cause problems. A little touch of heat to break bubbles should do no harm.

I have never heard of "bad thread" of any kind other then the sewing machine threads which may have silicone on them, and unless you purchased all your "problem" thread at once it is almost inconceivable that all the thread you hae could be bad.

What are you covering it with? You probably said, but I forget. If epoxy, that's what I use successfully. (Pro Coat or whatever it's called and Flex Coat). If you are using something not designed for rod windings, that may be a problem. If using a one-part polyurethane, it does dry with a much different, less smooth appearance than epoxy.

I presume you store your thread in a manner that would not allow contamintation?

In conclusion, I would be more suspicious of the epoxy or polyurethane than the thread. Good luck, and if you figure it out, let us know.

The thing about this that puzzles me is that I've followed this forum since the Pro Wrap threads were introduced and have never seen any comments of finish problems with it before. I have used about 7 colors of Pro Wrap metallic and have never had a finish problem. The only time I had an unusual problem, and it was wavy/fish-eyes, was when my rod fell out of the dryer after a few hours causing the finish to be scuffed up and I tried to salvage it by using a lot of heat. The heat smoothed the scuffs but caused the uneven finish, which had to be sanded and redone.

I never use alcohol in the way you do. I don't wash anything down with alcohol. I make sure my hands are clean and I don't have any oil around my wrapping area and don't use wrapping tools for other jobs.

You are not using heat after applying the finish, are you? As I have shown, excessive heat can cause problems. A little touch of heat to break bubbles should do no harm.

I have never heard of "bad thread" of any kind other then the sewing machine threads which may have silicone on them, and unless you purchased all your "problem" thread at once it is almost inconceivable that all the thread you hae could be bad.

What are you covering it with? You probably said, but I forget. If epoxy, that's what I use successfully. (Pro Coat or whatever it's called and Flex Coat). If you are using something not designed for rod windings, that may be a problem. If using a one-part polyurethane, it does dry with a much different, less smooth appearance than epoxy.

I presume you store your thread in a manner that would not allow contamintation?

In conclusion, I would be more suspicious of the epoxy or polyurethane than the thread. Good luck, and if you figure it out, let us know.

The statement about a 12 color box does bring in the possibility of all thread being purchased at once and possibly bad. It could be that that the box was contaminated with oil or mold release or something. It's the box the thread came in? If yes, I'd send the whole thing back with a complete description. Maybe we'll see a comment from Mudhole.

...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2014 07:08PM by Mark Gwynne.

People that post responses should be sure and read the post carefully before posting a reply. I f you will note, he all the colors from the box and only had problems with 2 of the 12. Pretty well rules out the box!

Hello,

Thanks for the replies guys.

Ross-
Thanks for your thoughts. I heat my epoxy with a little space heater to thin it a bit before applying to wraps with the dryer turning. I will wait for the epoxy to soak into the threads, then stop the motor to wick off any excess before re-starting and letting turn till cured. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the epoxy was thin enough and the thread saturated enough that adding any more epoxy would have been in excess? Have not tried using a heat gun to thin the finish, but I do use a brief and minuscule amount of low-heat flame on all my wraps to get rid of any bubbles.

Randolph,
Thanks for the suggestion, I will give the color preserver a shot.

Roger,
Thanks for your reply. If the problem cannot be solved, I will heed your advice and let the vendor/manufacturer know about it.

Michael,
Thanks for your comments. I have used Pro-wrap metallics in the past with no problems which is I'm scratching my head over this one. Yes, the thread in question was brand-new and fresh out of the manufacturer's 12-color box. All my thread is stored in Tupperware containers indoors and out of the sun. The box came with what looks like polyester wadding lining the bottom. What do you think about stripping off some outer layers of thread from the spool and re-wrapping to see if that solves the problem?

Will do some more tests and keep you posted.

-chad

Hello,

The epoxy I used was Classic Rod Coat which I use all the time with no problems except those that stemmed from my own mistakes...

-chad

Sorry about missing the "only two colors." From your descriptions, I don't have clue what the problem is.

Re stripping some surface layers off, I guess anything is worth a try.

Chad,
You are only having problems with two colors.
Have you ever ordered from that color from that vendor before?

If not, as I said before, it certainly sounds like you have some bad thread. Send it back to the vendor for their test and replacement with a new lot of thread.

Since your process is identical with all of the thread colors and are only having trouble with two specific spools of thread, it would seem pretty reasonable to say that you have some defective thread on those two particular spools.

Any time ( which has been very infrequent) that I have a problem with a spool of thread, I instantly throw it into the garbage.

I don't want any possible "Bad thread" causing me latter trouble and aggravation.

In the scheme of things, thread is very inexpensive and doesn't warrant spending a lot of time to trouble shoot or diagnose. The thread is bad for you and your technique. Return it to the vendor and move on.

Be safe

I have that same color of gold metallic and have not had that problem. I tend to agree that the thread is possibly faulty or contaminated. I also agree with stripping a few layers off and trying that. But, in doing that, you are having to throw away thread that you paid for. Even if it works OK after you strip a few layers, you have lost thread at no fault of your own. I would try and return the thread regardless of the outcome of the test.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

Hello,

I posted some pictures in the photo gallery under "miscellaneous".

Roger and David-
Appreciate your replies. I agree that all this trouble-shooting seems more hassle than its worth, especially since I've had to modify my technique from what I normally would expect to work for me. David, I had those thoughts too, but wanted to at least see if I could get it to work.

Update-
Stripping off several yards of thread from both spools and re-wrapping resulted in the same problems. A coat of color preserver seemed to help somewhat, but didn't completely cure things as I could see the epoxy wet out in an un-even sort of manner, if only less wavy.

An email has been sent to the vendor/manufacturer requesting help in exchanging my thread.

Thank you all for your advise.

-chad