I have been looking around at some high end surf blanks lately like century, cts, and fsc and noticed one thing in common. Why is the two piece version of the same rating often much lighter? Sometimes over an ounce on a 5oz blank. One answer I got was that there are different tapers, sanding techniques, and ferrule tech that shed weight. If so, why cant the same tapers and sanding techniques be applied to a one piece? Common sense says the added ferrule would only be heavier but it never is.

It's because they're not exactly identical models. I think if you look around enough you'll even find that in some cases the multi-piece model is heavier than the single piece model. It's not really an apples to apples comparison. If it were, the 2-piece model would nearly always be a tad heavier than its 1-piece counterpart.

.............

Thats the only thing that seems logical to me unless I was missing something, so I had to ask. Ratings may be the same, but butt sizes and tips often differ, so excuse my lack of knowledge if its a dumb question. What threw me off was the previous reply from a rod designer stating that it was tapers, sanding, and ferrule tech that lends itself to a lighter build. Without understanding too much about rod construction and techniques I didnt know if there was some potential of high failure rate in longer strands of graphite or if the ferrule allowed for some type of reinforcement where two peices could be constructed much differently yet stronger. Since Im trying to learn about rods is there anywhere or previous post that explains how rods are made so I can understand better. I think I understand the whole mandrel rolling, epoxy and such, but what is the basic form of graphite? I imagine a fine powder when I think of carbon but when I have broke a rod it seems like seperate strands. Any basic understanding would help. May be over my head, but I really like to learn about various building aspects and atleast try and know what Im talking about. Thank you very much Tom and other builders for helping a newby understand.

Found a good basic understanding from a google search and harrison rods explanation. I dont know why the pre-preg fibres didnt stick in my mind because I have heard this many times before and read up on it years ago, but didnt know if this was standard practice or if some created from basic raw materials. A good read either way

Dennis,

There is a great segment on How It's Made, or a similar show on the Science Channel. I caught it the other night before I went to bed. They detail the general process of producing carbon fibers, and the process of making prepreg. It was rather interesting, and gives a nice visual to go with the reading. Additionally, there was a similar segment on making rods that showed how St. Croix goes from a sheet of prepreg to a finished rod. There is also a video or two from Seeker showing some of the things they do. The link to the Seeker videos are on the forum (posted some time back).

Joe

Dennis,

You may want to check with Kendra at Lamiglas regarding the next blank building seminar.

Here's a link to info about last years event.

[rodbuilding.org]

Don Becker

Dennis Hamilton Wrote:
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> What threw me off was the previous reply from a rod designer stating that it
> was tapers, sanding, and ferrule tech that lends itself to a lighter build. Without understanding

Pretty straightfoward, the blanks are designed differently but the ratings are the same. That's why you had 50 different companies with 100 different models and actions for teh exact same rating.

Thanks guys, some good leads here. Billy, the thing I don't understand still if thats the straight forward case, is why those same techniques are not applied to the one piece rods to make an ultralight build eliminating ferrule weight if thats the case. It seems the market somewhat demands rods to be as light as possible yet still balance strength and still achieve desired action. Im sure the companies are achieving this but as Tom said it should be lighter if the same in 1pc. Im sure Im missing something by only looking at numbers because power and action cannot be the same when tip and butt dia differ. Again excuse my lack of knowledge because Im not trying to become an internet expert by any means, as it may seem. My whole goal is to understand the basic properties of a rod by understanding the tapers, modulus factors, and actions based on spread sheet numbers. I live in Florida and don't have major funds, so it is essential for me to be able to understand so my cheap ass can buy a blank I cant get my hands on prior to yet still know what I am getting by relating the properties of rods in the lineup I have felt. Hard to justify $200+ blank trials for myself not to mention 1pc shipping without doing my research first.

Here's more information that may provide insight for you.

Lamiglas factory tour
[www.youtube.com]

Materials, Action, Taper, Power
[www.lamiglas.com]

Don Becker

Dennis, could it be that the ones you are looking at are 70/30 split rods? If so I could see the bottom section being without taper and not needing to add much power. I would think it would be hard to build a 1 pc like that.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,
Most of the rods are a 70/30 but some are 50/50. Im not really looking for a 2pc right now anyway, but wanted to know why they were lighter then the one piece models I was looking at. I guess this is where my lack of knowledge about rod construction comes into play. Without knowing how the carbon fibres are layed out, whether continuous strands from butt to tip, overlapping sections, multiple layers and so on why couldn't you construct a one peice without taper in the lower section then taper it the same way on the upper 70 or is the only way because the ferrule adds reinforcement to allow for this? Should of just asked that to begin with because one thing in common was a smaller butt dia. and probably where weight was saved

Dennis, I don't think knowing how rods are made is going to satisfy you but I'll try and help a little.

You are going to start with a mandrel. This is the tapered rod around which you will wrap your prepreg. Next you purchase your prepreg(s). This is a carbon sheet pre-impreganted with epoxy resin. Then you cut your prepreg into a pattern to fit your mandrel....roughly christmas shape. The prepreg is wrapped onto the mandrel under pressure. Then a shrink tape is spiral wound over top to insure a constant pressure while the blank cures. Then it is off to the oven for a lengthy cure. Afterwards the rod is pushed of the mandrel. That means the inside diameter of the blank must increase from tip to butt......or at least be a constant. Pretty hard to slide the butt section of the rod into the tip section when the butt must be at least as large.....get the idea? You might think of a 2pc blank as two different blanks built on short mandrels.

Now, there are loads of different prepregs. On most the fibers run from tip to butt of rod but not in all. A quality rod will use a number of different prepregs. They may be aligined in different ways in different spots on the blank. They will almost certainly be of different grades as different parts of the rods are asked to do different things. This is all under the heading of "trade secerts" and what separates the quality of rods from each other. Buying power is huge as most prepreg isn't used for rods. So unless you are prepared to buy a lot of very coastly material you don't get to spec it.

So we have the mandrel to consider first. If you look closely into the rod industry you will see very few names and a lot of them are associated with more than one company. Mandrels that used to belong to only company X eventually become part of company Y and Z. Then we have the prepreg. As mentioned not all have the buying power to get stuff made to their specs. A top tier operation could bring a blank from concept to prototype in a day. A small company could wait a year or two to get their gubby paws on the right prepreg:) Then you would need to decide on small diameter with heavy wall thickness....or large diameter with thin wall thickness. There are a lot of ways to skin the cat.

So consider a 2 pc rod with a tip section with a rather fast taper. Lets make it thin walled large diameter. Lets go 70/30 split. We will build the bottom section out of a stiffer prepreg and go thicker wall smaller diameter with no taper to speak of. We only need it to be a little stronger than the tip section yet have an O.D that slips into butt end of the tip section. If we built the same blank as a 1 pc the butt section would have to be larger, or equal, to the tip section's butt I.D. in order to get it off the mandrel. If the I.D. is the same, yet it needs to be stronger, then the O.D. is going to be larger (which generally equals heavier).

Now I should say I'm not being 100% accurate in all accounts.....just trying to get a concept across. A good surf rod is never going to be cheap. However I don't think you need to spend stupid money. I have no doubt the zziplex makes a terrific rod. That said I doubt it equates to three or four times better than a lamiglas super surf.

FWIW, just as I said to Keith, I would not hesitate to buy a 2 pc rod these days.......even moreso if I went 70/30 split. I mean heck....in many ways the bottom 1/4 of the blank doesn't flex and is little more than a place to mount a reel seat and grips. If we can replace that with something cheaper and lighter why not? Matters little if it is carbon prepreg or aluminum material (IMHO).

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,
Awesome explanation that was very easy to understand and put alot of things into perspective I was overlooking. Thanks for taking the time, I really appreciate it. Take Care and Happy New Year