I know I have read the article but didn't remember that last paragraph shown here. It would point out that not all abravise cleaners are the same due to grit size plus that note about them being far and away superior to anything EXCEPT Scotchbrite. I will stick with the Scotchbrite to put my mind at ease.

"To Me..."

The argument of Old Dutch Cleanser, Comet, or a Scotchbrite doesn't make much sense.

On one hand you have the "water break free" group saying the Scotchbrite is the way to go for deglossing the finish.

On the other hand you have the "get it clean" group saying Comet (or Old Dutch) is all you need to thoroughly clean the surface and that cleanliness is all you need for a proper bond.

I say it isn't a matter of "cleanliness" at all (although you do want the surface to be clean, obviously).

I think it boils down to obtaining the water break free surface. Does that mean I believe the Scotchbrite theory is the only correct one? Nope.

I actually think the two cleansers listed (Old Dutch and Comet) are abrasive enough to have the deglossing properties needed for proper bonding.

So, in reality, the "cleaning" is actually giving you the water break free surface you need for proper bonding...the same as you'd get with a Scotchbrite.

Plausible?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2013 10:55AM by Jay Lancaster.

Yes and no. Read the entire article. This isn't a "theory," it's a fact borne out by scientific tests done to obtain the optimum surface preparation for critical applications. Not an observation nor "test" done by a rod builder, but by research teams working in the aerospace industry.

Ralph mentions that some abrasive cleaners are too abrasive and weaken the bond by cutting into the surface of the substrate too deeply. This is why he specifically mentioned the Old Dutch Cleanser. And in no case do any of them, including the Old Dutch Cleanser, work as well as Scotchbrite.

Now considering what a rod has to endure, I doubt either or any method described in the last few posts is going to get you into any practical trouble. But it is so easy to clean (alcohol), degloss (Scothbrite) and adhere, that doing it any other way seems to introduce additional time and trouble that aren't necessary and do not provide the absolute optimum condition that the aforementioned does. If you can obtain the optimum with less mess, work and trouble, why not? And if you want to use something other than Scotchbrite, you'd be best off by choosing Old Dutch Cleanser.

............

Ha! So I was right! All without reading an article. LoL

I use a Scotchbrite...all is well.

Doesn't quite sound like it to me from your above post, but if you're using cleaning, then using Scotchbrite to degloss, you're fine.

Sometimes folks worry about the residual scouring dust left from the deglossing procedure. Ralph stated that it doesn't hurt the adhesion of the epoxy and wiping it off actually reduces the static charge that the Scotchbrite created. However, some of the parts we use in rod building won't accept a static charge to begin with and since it's rarely important for the stresses rods undergo nothing is hurt by blowing the dust off, or brushing it off with a soft brush. If it bothers. Don't wipe it with a tack rag, however.

............

I think there is some confusion here. The post was about reel seats. What I posted was about reel seats, not about blank prep!! I wouldn't use comet on a blank. Just the inside of the seat.

The article was not specific to rod blanks.

If you have a "water-break-free" tool as outlined in an earlier issue of RodMaker, you can prep the inside of a reel seat in under 5 seconds.

..............

Yep...confusion.

Degloss...that's what I said...that what Tom said...that's really what you're doing by scouring with an abrasive cleaner.

(if what I stated came across any other way, it shouldn't have)

This post is like a tennis match...I'm just the ball boy running across the court.............

Tom, yes it was specific to rod blanks!! In the second paragraph Ralph states that you don't have to worry about the metal parts, that they have already be taken care of by the manufacturer!! That nothing needs to be done with them!! Page 2. As far as the blank itself I use 400 grit wet/dry sand paper. Not Comet. Even though Ralph says nothing needs to be done with the reel seats. I clean them by the method I outlined. Ralph came to me to test every one of his products. I didn't go to him! Tested them for years. Ralph was at my house/shop at least once a week for about 5 or more years. I wasn't keeping count.

For those really interested you can read a good amount of the book "Handbook of aluminum bonding technology and data" on line.

Jay, I do think there needs to be a distinction between cleaning/scouring with an abrasive cleaner and chemically preparing a surface (why a particular cleaning agent was called for). For example, say you were going to coat something and you were advised to either sandblast or acid etch to prepare the surface. You wouldn't be viewing the acid as just a cleaner. The big problem with aluminum is an oxide layer so be sure to bond quickly after prep.

Page 77 in the referenced book has some info on the work that Beoing did using an akaline cleaner. On chapters discuss scotch brite.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Some abrasive cleaners will do more than just degloss - that's why Ralph only recommended the Old Dutch and not any other.

For rod building the surface prep should be the same regardless of whether it's a rod blank or a reel seat. The important part is that you have that water-break-free surface condition. I suppose I should put up the other articles on this topic as well.

..............

I'm a big fan of the KISS principle. Wet a rag or paper towel with alcohol, wad and shove it through the reel seat bore. Now it's clean. Using the WBF tool shown in RodMaker, spin it through the seat end to end, then pull it back end to end. You're done and have a perfect water break free surface. I can't do it in five seconds, but sure it doesn't take me longer than ten or fifteen. Simple, quick, cheap and effective.

Old habits die really hard. I have read all three of the articles on surface prep, both for blanks and reel seats, and have switched my method to what Ralph outlined. But try as I might the idea of not wiping the deglossed surface off with alcohol just tears me to no end. I know it is the right way to do it and no better than to mess with the surface after it has been deglossed but still cannot for life of me feel good until I wipe it again. Lately I just use a clean paper towel with no alcohol but I know you are not supposed to do even that. I need a twelve step program to help me get over this notion that the last step must be a wipe!

everybody likes their method and that is good if it works, I like my method and it has worked for 43 years for me. :>)

Ken

i am with you

Wash Wipe dry Got a tuna rod i want to put a aluminum reel sear on
Scoff with a pad I like the red pads when gluing anything together
I was reading this post and ya were getting me Nervous
It is still the Keep It Simple Stupid yep simple still works well

Bill - willierods.com

Please do Tom. Given the number of posts there does seem to be interest. Not sure how it is for the fresh water guys but I'd wager all of us fishing salt water have seen aluminum reel seat bonding failures given enough time.

The few Boeing guys that I have had the pleasure of learning from have all been very special people. What a great place it must have been to work at in the 50's and 60's.

I strongly suspect it had to do with the PH of Old Dutch. Here is the MSDS sheet link.

[www.bme.mcgill.ca]

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Ralph indicated that it had to do with the size of the abrasive particles in the Old Dutch, but the PH could certainly have played a role as well. I'll ask him when I talk to him tomorrow.

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What I thought would be a simple question has turned into a very interesting discussion. I have to say I've learned a lot. Mostly that that this is a great community of people who are passionate about what they do, either as a business or a hobby. For me, most days I can't wait to get home from the daily grind and go into my shop and work on the rods I'm building. Thanks for all the answers and discussion. Will we make 3 pages on this one?

Steve Hartzell
Lake Conroe - Willis, Texas

Tom, when you talk to Ralph, tell him I said Hello!! Randy

About the only downer from attending this years Expo is that Ralph O'Quinn was too ill to attend. I was really looking forward to meeting him and hopefully be able to spend some time with him. I have really appreciated the articles he wrote for Rodmaker and he is definitely the epoxy "GURU" as well as a lot of other stuff he got into such as rod repair, the O'Quinn spiral etc.
I sincerly hope his health is better and enables him to do a bit.
A truly outstanding gent who has taught people heaps about the things he is passionate about, thankfully rodbuilding was one of them.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia