Hey all

Ok so here's the back story, I contacted this custom builder and told him I wanted a 9'6" steelhead rod. I specified the reel seat and kinda let him pick the rest. What I got back was absolutely beautiful as far as craftsmanship is concerned however, the balance point was horrid. It's neutral point is 6 inches in front of the reel. Now I figure that is my fault because I didn't specifically tell him where I wanted the reel seat. So I've contacted him and I've come up with a solution for that rod. I'm having it redone with a normal style cork handle and fore grip. That will make it a factory style but still less expensive than factory. I decided I'll give that to my father and I'm sure he will love it. So I'm having him build me another one with the reel seat I want so here's my question should I just tell him where I want the reel seat or should I send my reel to him and have him use it to balance the rod? The first one he sent me had around 15" behind the reel seat and that's way to much for my liking. I want him to use the Fuji sk2 as a uplocking system with the integrated cork/ locking nut. I hope to only have around 12 inches or less but more than 10 inches behind the reel seat. I don't want any added weight. Is this a possibility or am I just asking to much?

Thanks everyone
Tony

Something I forgot to say. It's very tip down as it is, I'm looking for a very neutral balance. I don't want any extra weight because I'm using this one rod for all day river duty, 13 or sometimes more hours a day. Also this is a spinning setup.

Thanks again
Tony

The builder SHOULD have asked what seat and where it was to pe placed and how long the handles should be And of course many more questions on the use of it and what you expected
every user has a rod in mind

Bill - willierods.com

bill boettcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The builder SHOULD have asked what seat and where
> it was to pe placed and how long the handles
> should be And of course many more questions on the
> use of it and what you expected
> every user has a rod in mind


He did ask a bunch of questions and he did say that he was going to put the reel seat so I would have a bit longer rear section hut i had no idea he was going to put it up that far. Should I just tell him how long I want the rear section or should I send my reel to him and see where it balances and then make a decision on whether to move it from there?

Thanks
Tony

If you have a 9'6" rod with a neutral balance point - and average guides:
You need a back grip of about 15-16 inches.

Unless you have some length and distance behind the reel, you won't have a balanced rod.

You can always use a 12 inches of back grip and about 1-2 ozs of weight in the last 1 inch of the blank - if you want to put up with the weight.

Roger

Tony,
By the way, I assume that you found that the rod balanced 6 inches in front of the reel seat - with no reel on the rod?

Where was the balance point if you put the typical 4000 sized reel that is commonly used on a steel head rod.

i.e. a 9-10 oz reel.

I would think that the reel is going to move the balance point to only be about an inch in front of the reel - which should be just fine.

Another very good option for a reel seat- is to put a fore grip - like a mooching rod.

i.e. put a 10 inch fore grip on the rod.
That way, you can move your hand up and down the rod - where ever you need it - to get the rod to balance.

Be safe

See

These are the things the builder should have known or he should have asked other builders if he did not

Bill - willierods.com

The balance is with the reel on. No I don't want 2oz of weight to the back of the rod, that would defeat the purpose of using the super light components. Having the reel so far forward that I have 14+ inches out back defeats the purpose of having a long rod also. So if I want to only have 10 to 12 inches out back the only options are add weight or deal with the tip heavy feel? How do these guys get their 9' plus rods to balance around a inch in front and still have a shorter grip and still maintain under 4oz complete? Steelhead stalkers has one that's insanely lite and has a very good balance point with a 2500 size reel they're just too much money for me.

Thanks
Tony

To me, this is a simple mechanics problem.

My personal rods balance within an inch of the real seat,.

Here is how I would approach the issue:
Choose a 2500 reel, strictly for weight.
Choose a real seat that fits your hand. No point in holding a skeleton real seat, or a too small one, for 14 hours. I am experimenting with a 24mm on my next build.
Pick a high modulus graphite rod, You want it as short as possible, but not too short. This is really compromise #1. The longer the rod, the more it magnifies the tip weight.
Pick the smallest and lightest guides you can. Consider guides without ceramic inserts such as REC or Minima. Consider micro guides unless you routinely fish at temperatures below 35 degrees.
Use a split grip, and place the handle material only where you grip the rod.
Use weights at the butt end. It sounds counterintuitive, but a small weight at the butt is better than a larger weight closer to the balance point.
Find a compromise handle length. The longer the handle, the less weight in the butt you need. This is compromise #2.

It boils down to weight times distance = weight times distance.
You can have anything you want, but you cant have it all.

Good luck with your build.

Doug
.

So my true options are 1-have him build it with the length rear I want and deal with the tip heavy feel. 2- have it built with the length rear I want and then add weight to balance it thus defeating the purpose in using the super lite components. 3- just stick with the Loomis factory and st. Croix factory rods I have as they both have petty good balance and the length rear section I like. I was really hoping I would find a better way to have the builder do the rod and get what I want. You know cake and eat it too kinda thing. Ok well I guess I've got to make a decision soon. If anyone else has a opinion on this feel free to give some input.

Thanks
Tony

Hi Tony,

The fact that you were pleased with the rod builders work is a very good start. I do not know how far you live from the builder, far can be a consideration.

Folks who buy custom rods come in all varieties. Some of them fish seldom and others fish all the time. Some are not very technical about their fishing and gear where others are very technical, know exactly what they want and why. You seem to fit the technical side and that is good as many times that makes the rod design easier.

For what you are experiencing is exactly why I almost insist that the customer comes to my shop for a design meeting. Rarely will I build a rod without the meeting. I want to know exactly what the person wants/needs and I want the person to see what is being chosen and why. Yes, some do travel a hundred miles plus to order/pick up a rod. Those that can't I suggest other rod builders I know nearer to them. Almost 100% of the time there is a customer meeting. Logic says I should charge for these meeting but I prefer not to. Yes, I will sometimes take a phone/email order and it has worked because we worked very closely and the person knew what he wanted and also did the internet research I ask of him. He ordered while in China.

If you came to my shop to order this rod we would design the rod together and in your case I would tape the components in place so you could get an approximate feel of the completed rod. When you were finally satisfied I would then build the rod.

So what will you do? I would go visit the builder. If that is not possible then buy the fine factory rod that will give you pleasure and satisfaction. Money is always a factor. So if the factory rod is that much more expensive than your build I would ask the builder to go check out the model rod you want. He can get the measurements off the factory rod and build yours.

Good fortune.

Capt Neil Faulkner

Tony,

What blank is the rod in question built on? How long is the fore grip? Does it have a long decorative wrap in front of the reel? Is it split grip or full rear grip? What size are your guides near the tip? For your rod to balance that far forward with the reel on, there has to be some significant weight in front of the reel.

Doug is right. The problem is a simple matter of balancing torques. The weight of the blank and the weight distribution within the blank are going to be the big issue with rods that long. Unless you are starting with a blank right around 2oz. You are likely going to need to add weight to balance it, especially with a shorter butt grip. A rod is all about compromises, and whether to add weight or not is a big one. While I'm not normally a proponent for adding weight to a rod, a long tip heavy rod is one time I feel it is worthwhile.

Adding weight to the butt does not completely wipe out the benefit of using the lightest components that will do the job. By using the light components near the tip, the rod becomes more efficient. If you can remove 1/4oz. from the guide train, you can add significantly more to the butt without completely killing the benefit.

I have a 10'6" float rod (casting) on the bench now that the owner wants balanced. It's being built on the MHX 1262 weighing in at 2.84oz. It's being built with a 15" total rear grip including a removable balance system under the butt cap, pushing the finished length to ~10' 7.25". The owner wanted a 5" fore grip and to try a split grip. Because of the weight distribution in that blank and the fore grip, as a casting rod, there just isn't a way to balance the rod without adding significant weight or pushing the reel seat forward.

The bottom line is that to get to where you want to go, you need to start with a high modulus very light weight blank. Even then your techniques may require starting with a blank that is physically heavier, and can't be balanced without adding weight.

That rod over 9' under 4oz. with good balance is going to be the exception rather than the norm.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2013 02:34PM by Joe Vanfossen.

I guess I'm wondering how Loomis and St. Croix factory rods accomplish the feel you want. Can the geometry/arrangement they are using not be used on a custome build? Proprietary components perhaps?

John

Simple physics when you move the fulcrum (reel seat) forward you gain weight in the rear but need a longer rear grip
When you use a shorter rear grip you have to move the seat rearward...thus necessitating added weight to the butt to get it to balance.....The weight of the reel, in my mind, is not going to make that much of a difference in balance point since it IS the fulcrum. Am I thinking that correctly?

If I am the answer is a weight system in the butt....the dynamic balance of a rod can make a slightly heavier rod FEEL lighter.

if its tip heavy cant you just move the reel seat back and use the weight of the reel to get balance? sorry if im wrong im just wondering cause this thread is teaching me a lot even though normally i like a light tip end and a heavier rear instead of perfect balance

edit: well with that said i just tested the balance on the rod i just built and the balance point with reel is 1 inch from the top of the reel seat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2013 11:31AM by jon edwards.

You can find out what is used on the St Croixs and Loomus rods you like measure the seat handle and type of material used Use the lightest guides you can and short wraps So the tip is lighter permagloss on the threads will help
Butt handles can be made with heaver material shouch as wood If a split grip put a full grip
With a rod that long a heaver material at the butt will help
having handles - seats - guides on hand is good to weigh them to get the lightest trying different handles on to check weight and ballance before glueing Exodic cork is also heaver then regular cork

If you can have the builder use your reel maybe he can change the butt handle to help ballance it

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2013 11:51AM by bill boettcher.

Check out Manly Rods. Terry Manley had a booth at the Expo and I actually won one of his adjustable butt systems at the reception. I haven't built with it yet but I will. It allows you to adjust the weight on the butt and hence the balance of the rod. I don't know if it is something you can retro fit to the rod you have already built but you might be able to . It's at least worth looking into. The website is [www.manleyrods.com]

Steve Hartzell
Lake Conroe - Willis, Texas

John,
Loomis and St. Croix build on and use the same components that many custom builders use.

I suspect that if you hold a custom rod, that is exactly the same length built with nice light guide and tip components and has a butt length the same as a comparable Loomis or St. Croix rod - that the balance point will be identical.

Remember, as I posted earlier-
You need the balance point where you want it - with the reel on the rod.

Many folks take a bare rod and find that the balance point is 6 inches in front of their desired balance point. But, then they also find that when the rod has been equipped with the reel of their choice that the balance point of the rod Is just fine.

So, before you go changing anything - put the reel on the rod that you want to use and see where the rod balances. See if the rod is then comfortable for you to use.

Good point

use it But bring some kind of weight with you when you go fishing If it does not feel right try taping some extra weight on the VERY butt end of it Try again If it makes any thing feel better Then you know you need more weight on the butt grip

You may just have to try the rod and Maybe find it works well ???

Bill - willierods.com

Tony, in rereading your post, it seems to me that with the new build, moving the reel seat (and reel) rearward, will also move the balance point rearward, thus lightning the tip. If I was you, I would send him the reel, tell him you do not want 10 to 12" behind the seat, and have him see how it balances before building it out.