Hello,

I'm fairly new at the game and my first few rods using the 27x method have come out great, I now want to set up two rods using the rapid choke both are 7 foot mhx blanks one is 2-6lb the other 4-8. After days of reading and measuring and also some advice I'm in a little bit of a daze. Both rods will have certate 2000's and after measuring them probably 20 times I'vw come to the conclusion they are within 1mm of the specs on the ngc software for a stradic 2500 using KL H guides so we will go with those inputs.

Here lies problem number one, I understand that the choke point is moved closer to the reel face using the NGC method resulting in a much faster reduction train but after everthing I've read the guide software doesn't seem right to me, software is giving me these first three options for the stripper guide 1/ 25mm ring at 253mm or 9.96 inches, 2/ 20mm at 299mm or 11.77 inches and 3/ 16mm at 356mm or 14 inches, I have read here time and again that the stripper guide needs to be 20-24 inches from the reel face, it appears as though the software doesn't agree with this or is it an NGC thing? The spool is 43mm in diametre so my logical choice would be a 20mm stripper but that puts me at 11.77inches which is half the distance I want to be. Would a 16mm stipper be ok for a 43mm spool at lesat it will get me further north on the rod or would i be better off with the twenty in the 16's place?

The next issue is that the choke point according to the software is at 712mm or 28inches leaving me with 14inches between the software stipper guide at 14inchs and the choke point at 28inches assuming its ok to use a 16mm stripper. This would give me enough room to put the stripper at 16mm one reduction of say 8mm and then the 5.5 at the choke this all seems really tight sure I could move the choke point towards the tip but wouldn't that be counter productive? I have read that its ok to have a 14 inch reduction train so maybe its just me?

The final issue is the real face will sit say 10 inches north of the but, then we have stripper 1 reduction and the choke from the butt equalling 38 inches now I have to lay out the running guides again going on what I've learnt here I need them no less than 4 inches apart and no more than 5 inches apart. so working on 5 inches from the software choke point I'm looking at a further eight running guides and a tip with the total being 11 guides plus a tip. From what I've read and rods Ive looked at isn't it supossed to be one guide per foot plus a tip?

I'm now totally frustrated and would really appreciate any sort of help or a recipee someone has used with this method and klh guides. I realise I can move things around and test cast etc but I'm on a fairly tight budget and really only want to buy the correct guides not extras to play with surely a 7 foot spinning rod with a 2000 diawa is run of the mill stuff I can't understand why I'm having all these problems I know once I do it once I'll be fine from there on but the once is an issue.

Two suggestions I've had so far are KLSG-20H, KLSG-8H, KTSG-6J & 9 of KTSG-4.5J and 16, 8, 5.5 (high frame KL-H) reduction train followed by all 4's

Thanks for taking the time to read this I'd love to hear a suggestion or two as this is doing my head in.

Cheers
Mark Newcombe
Old Bar NSW
Australia



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2012 03:20AM by Mark Newcombe.

Hi Mark

I will be bringing up a rod saturday to Barrys.I have the tip top on and reel seat i suggested to Col we can do a set up with the 27x method and do a static test as well.
Not sure if any of the other lads have done this before but it will be interesting.Be good to meet and hopefully we can work out a solution for you and me.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Ray
Mark won't be coming down he's not to flash, up to his eyeballs with the medication he has to take.

Regards Baz

Bundeena
NSW Australia

I don't know if this method is politically correct but I will share it with you as it has worked well for me; I usually decide what size stipper I want to use based on the spool diameter, place that at 20" of the spool face, remove the spool and tie hi-vis line to the spool stud and tape it off to the blank so that the line just touches the bottom of the frame of the stripper. Where the line meets the blank is your choke point. Now if you experience any issues with the layout in between thw stripper and the choker (ex. a 10 is too close to the choker and a 12 is too close to the stripper) just move your stripper somewhere between 19"-21" and redo the process finding a different choke point. You should be able to get something to work that way, just remember to do a few test casts after you get them taped on.

Hi Mark,
First and foremost, don't get stressed over what might be a 5-10% better rod, it's not life threatening. What you have certainly is so take it easy. You''l be missed on Saturday. I haven't tried the rapid coke method yet but will give it a go on the CTS blank I bought. If your happy with the choke point then set the rod and reel up on a straight edge and measure the distances from the rod to the edge. You can look at the Fugi site and find the heights of the guides so you should be able to get something that will match up. A smaller ringed high framed guide will be further away from the reel so might suit you better. The next one might have to be either a high frame or standard height. When you do your static test you might be able to cut down the number of running guides. Five inches isn't set in concrete so you might be able to increase that a bit. Just make sure the line angle at each guide is the same and the line follows the blank curve fairly well. I just got a lot of titanium high framed single footers so I might have been able to give you a few. Sizes from 30 to 6 with SiC rings. If you still can't get it right just go back to the normal 27x method as there is nothing wrong with that.
Looks like my photography lessons will have to wait a bit. Hope Barry's web cam idea lets you participate on Saturday so let me know how it goes as you might solve the long distance meeting issue.
Take care.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Hey Mark: As crazy as some of those dimensions sound, they are not far off of a Rapid Choke configuration. First, you mentioned NGC and we don't want people to confuse the NGC with the KR CONCEPT. Rapid Choke is specific to KR CONCEPT and was introduced by Fuji as a BRAID CONCEPT because braid will cooperate with efforts to smooth the flow of line quickly. The GPS readout for a Stradic 2500 puts a size 12 KL-H at 17.8 inches. Light braid can easily be sent through this size stripper and is still gives you 11 inches to the choke point. Add the 5.5 KL-H at 23 and your first KB at 28 and tape and test. Watch closely and "skooch" a little if needed. Static load to 90-degrees and add guides only where you need them. Don't worry too much about keeping line completely off the blank, it's OK for line to touch a little in a really deep bend. I know an 11 inch reduction train sounds odd, but we've achieved excellent results with similar set ups. Order the 16, 12, 8, 5.5, 4.5KB and 5, KT4.5 plus tip. That will give you plenty to work with, tho I think the 12, 5.5 will be the best. GOOD LUCK.

In the future try not to mix concepts. If you want to build a KR CONCEPT rod, apply the information and work to maximize the performance. You can't plug in GPS and then argue with it because it's not the same number you get with 27X (it never will be and, in fact, will vary widely). That is the source of 99% of the confusion and frustration. These concepts are NOT different methods for getting the SAME results. All the results will be different. NGC is over 15 years old, tried and proven. 27X is a modified, simplified version of the NGC that Tom developed shortly after NGC was released and has worked beautifully on millions of rods. KR CONCEPT is one year old and created specifically for braid, and though it draws from NGC, it is designed to stand on its own. It cannot and should not be "cross-checked" with other build techniques.

By the way, a one millimeter difference in one of the height measurements can make a 2 inch difference in some guide positions (which is why we always recommend the "tape n test" phase), so it's always best to measure the reel you will be using.

Thanks so much for all the help everyone its appreciated I am on some pretty heavy meds at the moment Col or I'd be there for sure. I'm building two rods so I'll follow Jims advice with the first one and I'll use yours for the second Col, i'll give you a call to arrange things.

Jim two quick questions if thats ok does "skooch" mean to move around and should the 16 down to 5.5 be all high frames.

Sorry about mixing up the concepts to much to quickly I think. I would recommend rod building to anyone that loves fishing and needs a hobby to take there mind off things during illness recovery. This forum is excellent and thanks to all for the advice.

Cheers
Mark Newcombe
Old Bar NSW
Australia

Hi Mark,
Some excellent stuff there from Jim and that will clear up things with a lot of builders.
I'm a shift worker so if you need help send me an email and I'll give you a ring.
You get yourself as well as possible and don't miss the next meet with Mark Fisher. Will probably have another meet in February and by then the weather will be good and there might be the odd Jewie about so Old Bar sounds like a good place to have it and you won't have to travel.

ESFNEM Col
Port Kembla, NSW
Australia

Hi Mark

Sorry to hear you wont be down on saturday i hope things improve for you.Good luck with your next builds i am sure they will turn out great.
Hope to meet up with you at our next meeting take care.

cheers

Ray Balmforth
Figtree
NSW
Australia

Yep for sure Ray wouldnt miss out on meeting Mark Fisher and you guys. Looking forward to it all ready.

yes Mark "skooch" is probably a little southern but it's the same as a bump, ooch or smidge. It can be more or less than a whisker but it's usually less than a shove and more than a gnats a$$. We do not use hair to measure at Angler Resource.

Hope this clears things up.

Yeah mate i thought as much just checking my American, we call it an ants **** but thats for really fine tollerances.