I am wrapping my first rod with micros. and need some help. I have a 6'8" St Croix V medium casting blank. I would like to use 10-12 #4 micro-guides with a #4 tip. What is a starting spacing before I do a static test ? I have noticed that some of the factory rods have all micros( stripper guldes also). Is this the way to go or do I need a larger stripper guide ? The rod will be used with 8-10 # flourocarbon line. Thanks for any suggestions.

Go to the Anglers Resource web site and read about the micro guides there, then try their Guide Placement System..

David, this is just my preference, but I use a size 6 double foot for the butt/stripper guide because the guys I build for use them in tournaments and use rod lockers. You can go with 4's all the way if you want but the double foot stripper will add a little strength down there where it is most needed. On a 7' rod my first guide usually ends up between 19 and 21 inches from the front of the reel seat. I use Hydra blanks mostly and on a SJ841 med. Lt. 7' I usually end up with 9 guides + the tip. That blank has a fast action so yours may end up with more guides.
Here's my layout for that rod: (inches from tip)
Size 6 - 47", then 4's at 40", 33.5", 27.5", 21.5", 16.5", 12", 8", 4", tip
Hope this helps.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

David,
I think 10 -12 micros is a few too many for a 6'8", 8 to 10 should do it. Place your first guide 4 inches back from the tip and don't move it unless the static deflection test demands it. Place your stripper 21 inches from the face of the reel and space the rest of them at 5" apart to start with. You'll move these running guides and maybe even delete some as you progress through the static deflection test. I use an equi-distant spacing say, from the first guide back, of 5,5,5,6,6,6,7, etc.. RodMaker had an article by Rich Forhan on equi-distant spacing a few years back and I've been using it as a starting point since then. Sometimes it works out as an ending point too. There's a good article in the library on static deflection and it'll help you set your guides. Don't worry about the line touching the blank during the test as long as it doesn't drop below it. The factory rods use way too many micros, in my opinion, and defeats the goal of saving weight. As far as the stripper being a micro, it's okay but, the angler must use a reel that has a stationary line guide on the cast. Most of them do. but if you try to use something like an Abu 4600c where the line guide tracks back and forth while the line feeds out on the cast, you'll experience a mess at that first guide and will definitely be fighting some friction issues. No problem though, if this is the reel to be used, I've found that a number 8 double foot, followed by a number 6 and then micros on out will tame it pretty good.
BTW, number 4 micros are the way to go as long as they will pass the line and any connections used. I'm not a big fan of the micro tips as I'm having more and more come back where the ring fell out. 6 out of about 20 so far. However, I am suspicious of undue abuse so maybe someone else will chime in on that.

Greg, I've been using Kigan micro tips and have not had one failure. (21 all together if you count rebuilds this past year). So far, so good. They are really well made 3D pressed rings.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

David S -
Take a look at the natural flex of the blank. Where the majority of the flex occurs, you're going to end up with guides a little closer together. I'd start with the first guides about 2.5" from the tip and then work back about every 3" just to start - with a focus on that section that really bends.

As for the all micro, that's really preference. I'd challenge you to buck tradition a little in placing the "stripper" or "butt" guide. Load up the blank and space it like you would any other guide. Don't do this last... do it first. Space it with the blank fully loaded, then work up a couple guides and then work from the tip in a traditional manner. Do a little test casting to ensure the stripper isn't too far out ( watch the line flow - you don't want lots of line slap) but placing it a little further out will help maintain a straighter line path also. I think you will find you end up spacing your guides a little differently. We've found this method to work very well for lots of rods, regardless of brand blank or guides.

On my builds, I'm really not concerned with where the line is coming off the reel and having to put a large stripper guide to compensate for angles. With the way the pawl disengages on today's baitcasters, you're often going to have severe angles coming off the reel spool to go through the line guide. The angle from the line guide to the first rod guide is never going to be this drastic.

If you really want a good tip top, look closely at the Kigan tips available through Swampland, Hydra, and soon to be Merrick Tackle. Kigan construction is very reliable - we have a reported .1% failure rate on production rods. I'm sure some failures have gone unreported but that's a very strong success rate. I know that 1 out of 1000 customers will still see that as a failure, but that's an improvement over the 30% failure rate Greg is reporting above. I'm sure angler abuse is a factor, but that should be considered in the design.

We have some information on our site regarding the advances made in Kigan's patented guide construction. [www.hydrafishing.com]

Alex

Hydra Fishing, LLC

Online: [www.hydrafishing.com]
Facebook: [www.facebook.com]
Email: info@hydrafishing.com

For what I have found using all micros and working with Bill Stevens, the first guide from the reel works best being farther away form the reel than what you normally would do. On the crankbait rods I work on, that guide ends up being somewhere around 28" from the reel. With the guide being closer, what I have seen, the line flow off the reel, you can see that it has more of a wave to it, you can see the line actually go below the blank during the cast. With the first guide further away, the line flow is much smoother and is almost straight right into the first guide. You really don't need a bigger first guide on the rod, the first guide really is in the reel itself. One other thing, I look at how the rod is going to be used to determine if I place the guides all on top or do a spiral wrap. If the rod is going to be used for tight line retreives then I place the guides on top. Between casting and retreiving, which is mostly tip down, at least in bass fishing, then the line is always only touching the guides. If you are going to be using the rod for slack line retreives, then I spiral wrap them. Slack line, the tip is up and again the line is only touching the guides. I normally only use 1-2 more guides than the norm of 1 per foot for the length of the blank plus the tip. So for the rod you are working on, I would have 9-10 guides.

If it will EVER be used for flipping where you grab the line between reel and first guide, you may want to use a larger guide than a micro to make it easier to do that. I use two larger transition guides for the first two on all my builds, the first guide being anything from an 8 to a 12. On that portion of a casting rod, there will be no noticeable real world effect due to the extra weight. As you move closer to the tip, guide weight effects multiply - this is where the micro guides shine.

Thanks for all of the input. I alway struggle with "how many micro guides". 'Have used the micro guide spacing chart available from Mudhole and have had guys ask, why so many guides? Obviously they give excellent support to the rod blank; but are they over kill? Loved the responses to Dave's question. Thank you very much for your contributions.

Don Campbell
don@sensorfishingrods.com

Donald,

Some very sound advice up above.

Since we are discussing freshwater/inshore type casting rods and reels here, and all on top builds, there are some things to think about. When it comes down to it, you need to use some number of guides spaced in some manner. Rather than putting the emphasis on the number of guides and a particular spacing, sometimes it's best to remind ourselves what exactly it is we are trying to accomplish with a guide train. It is the guide train that allows us to transfer our efforts on the rod to the line.

While I'm sure that rod would be functional with only 5 or 6 guides placed carefully, it won't be as efficient as it can be. Every blank has a natural flex pattern. Our goal to keep the stresses to a minimum on the rod is to keep the line as close to this natural curve as possible. If we use too few guides, the rod will be forced into an unnatural shape, and reduce the amount of force we can apply to the line. An ideal situation would be an infinite number of weightless guides, as the line would follow the blank perfectly. Unfortunately guides do have mass, and we know that we need to be careful about the weight we add to the rod, particularly near the tip. In order to follow the blank as closely as possible with a finite number of guides we use the static test (check the article in the Library here for great instructions).

In the end, you will likely learn that for traditional sized guides, say 6mm guides for the smallest guides on the rod that length in feet +1 is a good rule of thumb for the number of guides on a rod. There may be some exceptions that require more or fewer guides. The same number of guides and spacing that you use for larger guides will likely work well with micros, but you will probably find the line dipping below the blank more than you are used to because the micro guides have a much lower profile. With the weight of micros being so small, you can get away with using an extra guide or two, if called for by your static test, will not hurt anything as you will still have a guide train significantly lighter than a traditional layout.

What was found by some early adopters of micro guides was that you can set up your entire guide train using all micros on top by placing the guides with the same requirements for each guide in the static test. By keeping the same relation between the line and blank between each pair of guides (including the butt guide and reel level wind), enough guides are used to distribute the load. By pushing the butt guide a little further out, the angle between the line and butt guide is kept small and the line is tamed by the guide on your level wind. With the butt guide out further, the guide train may even require one fewer guide than with the butt guide closer to the reel.

So, to answer your question directly, a lot of micro guides can be over kill. But, if you consider what you are trying to accomplish with your guide train, an extra guide or two more than a traditional layout may be a good thing.

Joe

FWIW, I just completed a build on a 6'8" SCIII M XF, and ended up with 11 guides. After the static load test, I did not like the line path with a "normal" spacing (3", 6.25, 9.75, 13.75......), or with a non-increasing increment 3"x 7 guides. I ended up with seven 3mm Fuji SiC spaced 2.5" apart at the tip end combined with three 4's (what I had in hand) down to a 7 butt guide. As stated above, you can go all micros, but I personally like the looks of the step down with a DF butt guide. The rod is for me (pitching plastics).
This is my first build with the MXF SC's and was surprised how acute the angle was when under load, and thus more guides to carry the path. I am by no means as experienced or knowledgeable as those posting before me, and I struggle through a lot of trial and error. I actually wrapped and tested three times before settling on what I have now. The extra guides did not affect accuracy or distance although distance is not a huge concern given the intended application.
My next build will be on a 6'8" MXF SCV with Kigans and I suspect it will be similar, but the Kigans are a little taller and the blank has a little less acute angle under load, which will change the pattern some.
I hope this is helpful.

Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.
Leonardo da Vinci

Thanks for all the suggestions. My new plan is to use one 6mm stripper guide with 4's for the remainder of the guides. I'll determine spacing by the static test. I'm guessing I'll need narrow spacing toward the tip since this is an XF action. I'll start the stripper guide at 24" from reel seat.