I’m a part-time rodbuilder who has just started to build a few rods for clients and would like to begin attracting some more clients. Feedback of my work has been very positive so far and I’m very confident in providing a high-quality product to those requesting a professional custom rod. I’ve built many different styles of rods and withstood a lot of trial-and-error to finally be confident of my skills with the majority of build configurations. However, there has been one lingering problem that I’ve been yet to overcome and really affects my confidence when trying to sell my product to customers.

In a previous post I asked whether there was any way to avoid the small stress fractures in the epoxy at the tip of the guide feet (particularly large roller guides) after the rod has been loaded up for the first time. Although the feedback was helpful, it seemed that this problem was a common lament among rodbuilders and any amount of feet prep could not guarantee some fractures forming in some guides. While these fractures don’t appear to have any functional ramifications (unless water gets through the cracks and into the binds), their effect on the aesthetics of the finished rod has been a big concern of mine.

My question is how does one explain to a customer who is expecting a pristine product, that the stress fractures on their $700 rod are inevitable and that they shouldn’t worry about them? Has anyone dealt with a similar problem?

Thanks in advance,
Dane.

Normal wear and tear.

Until line guide materials enter the 21st century there's not much you can do about it. To minimize it as much as possible, taper the ends of the feet as shallow as you can. This allows them to flex a bit easier which reduces the tendency to crack or check the finish at that point.

.............

Dane,
You might try an experiment.
When prepping guide feet, I use a 1 inch wide by 30 inch belt sander. I hold the guide perpendicular to the spinning belt. I generally use a 100 grit belt to prep the guide foot. Starting at the tip of the foot, I and the guide foot to nearly a razors edge thinness with a uniform tape to the vertical portion of the foot.

I don't just sand on the first 1/8th or 1/4 inch of foot, but the entire foot from the tip to the vertical section.

This sanding effectivly thins the guide foot - particularly for the first 3/8th or so - on heavy action feet. By doing this, I have then never found an issue with finish cracking in or near the guide foot area.

Guide feet are manufactured many many times stronger than the stress that is but on the foot by the line and or rod. So, to thin the foot a bit doesn not change the strength of the foot enough to affect the longivity of the rod or its ability to catch fish.

Give a test rod a try this way and abuse it as much as you can and see what you find.

Good luck
Roger

Dane,
One other thing that MAY help the finish cracking issue is to go with the longest curing finish possible.

In an epoxy two part finish, generally the slower the cure the more flexible the product.

I have no idea what finish you are using for your rods, but if you are using a finish that set up very quickly, you might try a different slower setting product.

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For your personal information, you could do a fairly simple but obvious test of finish flexibility.

Take a piece of waxed paper.

Mix up batches of different brands and or cure rates of epoxy finishes - per the manufactures directions.
Then, put patches of a relative uniform size and thickness (comparable to the thickness of a typical rod wrap coating) on the wax paper.

Have labels on the patches of finish, so that you know which finish is which.

Then, set aside for two weeks to achieve a good complete cure.

Then, peel the wax paper off of each sample - the finish won't stick to the wax paper.
Then, take a couple of wide jawed pliers and flex the finish to the point where you are seeing visible cracking and or having the sample break. Note the approximate angle of cracking and or breakage of each sample.
You could have a fixed clamp for one side of the finish and a movable clamp for the other side that is fixed to an angular measure device like a protractor so that you can not the angle when cracking and or breakage is noticed on each sample.


You will then have some relative test results of the flexibility of different rod wrap finishes.

If you decide to do such an undertaking, please post your results. It would be interesting to see.

By the way, it would also be a good idea to use a caliper to measure the thickness of each sample after stripping off the paper, but before starting the bend. The thickness of the sample could be part of the overall test results.


Good luck
Roger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 11:18AM by roger wilson.

I've had the same problems with every epoxy thread finish that I used - especially when I used color preservers on guide wraps first. I have since learned to keep away from color preservers, opting instead for the first 2 or three coats of finish to consist of Lumiseal or Permagloss. Then, after 5 days cure time on the final Lumi/PG application, I use epoxy. Yet to have another "fracture" when using this method.

see billy V' s and Toms post

I build alot of big surf rods and on the larger guides to sit and grind feet would be a PIA. I grind the ramp on some guides but not the whole foot. I also use a slow cure epoxy as my first/ second coat like Afcote. Then my final coat will be a fast cure epoxy like Threadmaster. Now while I will still get some cracking it takes a long time. I also find that on the larger guides at least, Titanium guides crack less then stainless. I'm guessing the Ti guides flex with the blank more.

i'd have to say what Tom said I agree with until the components used in rod building become more modern were stuck with what we have. Rod blanks have come a million miles over other components we use. If it helps any Factory built rods all crack as well.. sooooo!

John,
Actually, if you want to give it a try, it only takes a few seconds each to sand down the full guide foot using 100 grit paper on a belt sander.
A PIA may be an issue, but I still prefer the extra 2 minutes per rod, to the possible after effects of not doing the sanding.

Don't use a file. Don't use a dremel tool, Don't use 400 grit sanding paper.
Rather use the 100 grit and you will be done in a jiff.

The point of the post is that we DON't have to be stuck with what the factories supply for components.

If there is a way to make the product better by a slight modification, go for it and check the results.

Take care
Roger

I don't think anyone files roller guides paper thin so that they flex. The majority of roller rods are less than 6', and the guide feet are so long that the epoxy will crack. I've never seen a roller guide rod that actually had use on it which dind' thave a guide crack. I've rarely seen any rods which need heavier guides that do not have some cracking somewhere. I've heard and seen a lot of people make claims that they build rods that do not crack, and on th eheavier SW stuff with heavy stiff guides I know they are either lying or ignorant to how their rods look after being used.

Thank you all for your replies.

For most of my builds, stress fractures haven't been a huge problem for me and I can happily and proudly pass on my product to my customers. However, for recent builds using AFTCO big foot rollers on x-fast tapered Calstars, the cracking has got to a point where I'm at a loss. The feet on those rollers are huge and rigid, and as Billy eluded to, I'm not prepared to grind down the feet to paper thin on an 80lb rod.

Personally I can accept the cracking and get on with life, but how do I explain that to a stubborn customer who (understandably) expect a pristine product? Has anyone else encountered a situation where they had to explain this problem to their customer?

Cheers,
Dane.

You make them understand regardless what they want, this is the reality and anyone who claims otherwise is full of crap. honestly that's what you have to do. YOu tell them this is wha tI've doen to REDUCE the problem, and this is why it happens - educate them. If they still complain, you tell them that you want the tires on your vehicle ot last forever, but the reality is they will wear out - normal wear and tear deal with it. YOu almost have to be a hardass to get the poiint across to some people. Much better to educate them and be up front than to lie and/or be ignorant to the problem and look like a scammer down the road.

Thanks for the good advice Billy and others.

I was thinking that was my only choice. In the few rods I have sold, no one has complained as yet. But I do certainly see questions being raised by customers with future builds. So before that happens I want to be 100% confident to say that there is nothing I can do about it.

Thanks again.

Dane.

I've built only freshwater rods, none too heavy, so I've rarely had any problems with cracking. Where I have had cracking I've found that a toothpick tip of Permagloss touched to the crack will fill it up nicely. You can try turning your cracking problem into a "Value added service". Explain to the customer hoe the cracking is inevitable. Tell them that at the end of the season they can bring the rod into your shop and you'll touch up the cracks and give the rod a once over; brush down, clean up, inspection, polish, whatever.

Here is what I do on all of my heavier (roller guide) builds.

Prep the guide feet as I normally would. One layer of underwrap. 2 layers of overwrap. Apply a fresh mixed batch of finish to each guide. Yes, I mix a fresh batch for each foot to insure its as loose as possible. Apply just enough to cover the thread. No more, no less. Let cure overnight. Take it off the dryer and then flex the living daylights out of the rod. Return to the lathe and apply another layer of thread and then apply 2 coats of finish as I normally would on a rod and then let it cure. Take it off and flex it and it should be ok.

It does not rid the rod of the stress cracks, but it minimizes them 95%

Kevin

Thanks Kevin, will definately try that approach. What size thread do you use for your overaps? My standard recipe is one wrap of A followed by two wraps of D.

Cheers,
Dane.

All D. I have tried both A and D combinations and all D and have seen no difference. So, I just go with all D.

Gyday all, just following this thread and had 2 give my 2 cents. To #####MINIMIZE###### cracks i use as short as underbind as possible!!! Im talking 3 or 4 strands each side of the guide foot. This means that i have to tie in and pull through the first over bind just under the cavity of the foot. by doing this the finish is flexing at the foot and not 10mm into the wrap. Also i give the rod a good flex before I apply any finish. Painting the foot arfter grinding seems to take away the shiny metal showing through the over bind also. Not fool proof but it all helps.