Lets start with static testing. I got 2 rod right now I'm building. The first one is 7' mh fast the seconf is 7'-6" xh fast. I started with the 7' buid. I put 10 micro's on the rod plus the tip and ran the line like I'm suppose to. When I did the test the first time I ended up with 9 guides left which is right so I thought. I did it again and I had 10 guides on the blank left. I understand I would want to go witrh the less guides of course but heres where I got a question. The first time I had 9 the second time I had 10 what if I put 8 or 7 maybe 12? All of them look right when I space them accordingly with the line. What is the right amount when you space them they all look like they load the blank right? What is to much and what isn't enough? I mean we're talking micro's so the weight is basicaly irrelevant. I plan on using the rods for largemouth bass and redfish.

Next is the spine. I read alot of you go with the straightest point why? Let's say you find the spine turn the rod a quarter turn then load the blank. Wouldn't the rod take the path of least resistance and want to go the route of the spine? If the blank bends easiest there why wouldn't it want to bend there first when it's at that position?

Iknow I'm going to get differnt reply's so please explain how and why?

These aren't my first build's it's just that I want to make sense out of my confusion.

There's alot of seniors here that I would love to hear from so feel free to explain why it is you do what you do.


Thanks for your time

I too, am interested in this. Especially the spine questions.

Not sure what type of rod this is your building, I assume it is not a fly rod.

Regarding the question about the spine and your proposal........ let's say you did turn the spine 90 degrees to the left (1/4 turn), do you think the rod loaded with a fish will want to go left or down. Even more apparent if the guides are on the bottom.

The leverage the guides apply are far more important then any effect the spine may have!

If you really want to build go right ahead. It makes no difference. With the advent of graphite high modulous material the "twist" we used to be so worried about is really a non factor once the blank is under load. First off do you really think the expensive rack rod guys would be building on the staightest access if all there rods were twistng when under load? Everyone would be returning them and complaining! Now I refer to my customers. Ever notice how when you see a fishrmen choosing a rod to purchase they hold it up a look down the blank like there buying a 12 guage shot gun. Mops this one is bent they put itback and pick another one. Well let me tell you when you have that rod under load its gonna bend! And bend it will in the direction of the guides. So the bottom line....It makes no difference how you build. straightest access or spine! The fish won't care and neither will the fishermen. I promise the blank wont self destruct either.

Here's what I'm looking at with the spine. All the guides on top the spine is at 90 degrees. When the blank is loaded I can see how the guides would want to roll the the path of least resistance. example... Take a 1/4x1"x6' peice og whatever and put the guides on the 1/4" side then loade it. Perfectly up and down the stick won't twist. Start torking the stick to the side it will want to bend on the easiest side. I know this is a big exageration but you can see what I'm saying.

I've built both way's and I understand the shotgun look I've done it.

It's a casting rod

This don't puzzle me as much as the static testing.

spine doesn't matter, build on straightest axis...if you are worried about it then build these rods in a spiral wrap

Due to the lever arm effect of the guides, the rod will attempt to turn until the guides are facing the direction the load is coming from. This is true regardless of where you position the spine (weakest axis).

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Try using the Search function here. Put in your spine, cast rod guides spin etc. You will be reading for a month A lot of info.

When the guides are on top they will want to go - as said - to the 180. Your tip - the thinnest part of the blank will get the hardest treatment. It is the nature of the beast.

How you set the spine does nothing for this.

Spin and fly rods are already at the 180

Spiral it

Bill - willierods.com

Thanks Tom and Bill. I do read alot on the search engine it's just that people do things different and I'm trying to make sense of the why.

It's realy the static testing that's geting me. With micro's more or less isbetter? does more affect the distance? On a 7' rod if I put 8 or 11 it looks right but is the blank properly loaded?

More guides means less distance, primarily due to the additional weight they add (there is very little friction between the line and rings on the cast).

However, from a practical sense, small, lightweight guides (I still don't really know what a micro guide is considered to be) don't add much additional weight and the difference between having say, 6 of them, or 7 of them, just isn't going to amount to any measurable difference.

That's one of the advantages current rod builders have over the past - the newer guide styles weigh very little and so erring on the side of having 1 or 2 more than absolutely necessary doesn't cause the penalty it once did.

And always remember - when in doubt, just tape up a couple sets and go out and cast the thing. That's the surest way to find out what you want to know.

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I agree with the casting test. As far as how many guides to put on it, I would test cast both ways and then IMO go with the option that gives the best cast with the fewest guides.

David Dosser
Coshocton, OH

I always pick guide amounts and locations based on static testing. I doubt I'd be willing to depart from that regardless of casting performance. Casting performance isn't important for most of my fishing.

I have had bass fisherman tell me they aren't concerned with line touching a blank. They claim the line wouldn't be moving when the blank is loaded to that point. For me that is the very time the line will be moving at maximum speed, i.e. as fast as the fish can swim. Fish like sailfish are very fast:)

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

I agree with John. If you are worried about the force exerted on the blank to rotate 180degrees, then you should spiral wrap the guides. The only negative to a spiral wrap is "they look funny."
They cast great, (maybe better) than all of top. They cast very accurately. The rod is balanced when under load.

Todd

john timberlake Wrote:
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> spine doesn't matter, build on straightest
> axis...if you are worried about it then build
> these rods in a spiral wrap


So, if I am building a spiral wrap, I shouldn't worry about spine at all? Why do most instructional vids/articles instruct you to find the spine, even if they disregard it when building?

Because their information is based on a myth which none of them have ever been able to back up.

If you use a spiral wrap, the rod will be inherently stable under load, regardless of where you position the spine.

If you have a spine finder, do this:

1. Put the blank in the SF and press down on it and when the blank rolls to a stop mark the spine.

2. attach guides to the blank, on an axis other than the spine, and this time instead of pressuring the blank with your hand, run a line through the guides and pull down on that line to load the blank.

3. Note where the blank rolls and stops now.

This should be enough to convince you that flexing a blank by hand in no way approximates what happens out on the water. Spine simply does not matter and is always trumped by the lever arm effect of the guides.

................

Can you explain what you mean by the lever arm affect?

As a straight definition, it's the perpendicular distance from the pivot to the line of action of a force. Picture a wrench being applied to a nut and what happens when you pull on the end of the wrench handle. The longer the handle is the greater the mechanical effect at the pivot per the same force. Think of that as torque.

Unless the guides are directly in line with the applied load (up or down), they act as lever arms and any load applied to the line applies force to them which in turns becomes torque on the pivot point (the rod). The taller the guides are the greater this effect will be.

The problem with all the books that mention rod "spine" is that they incorrectly assume that what happens when you flex a rod by hand is the same thing that happens when you apply load to a rod via a line running through guides (lever arms) wrapped to the blank. In reality, these are completely different scenarios, the latter being the one that truly approximates what happens when a fish is on the line.

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My comment,

Out of respect for everyone here, this topic was one of the first I focused allot of attention on before I even started wrapping practice rods. I read every day and researched about all I could about building Fishing rods. It all began here on this forum! I keep learning every day as I learned today reading this topic. What I have learned thus far?

The words concepts,principles,science,ideas,optimism are what I have compiled in my learning process's thus far. These are my tools to work with and this forum is also my tool for how to apply them to my builds in one way or another. I have learned the most important part of building a custom rod. Its the purpose of the intended use of the rod by the person using it! The customer, the user.....This is who I am building that fishing rod for, using the tools I listed above. Its not carved in stone on how many guides are needed for a specific blank, its not gospel or blasphemy on the color or what size or style but cap you put on it. Its what will make the USER very happy to fish with that rod for many years to come.

Spine and guide-placment fall under science and concepts and I use common sense to deduct my principles used to make the rod function for the USER and its intended use for that build. In optimism ideas are made and learning something new or relearning something old to help make our craft better. I think this topic sheds some eye opening thinking about the subject. Thanks all for sharing this one !

Rick H.

rwheil@msn.com

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