Parick,
2 different scenarios

Drop to 4 running guides utilize the 3's as runners
Spacing from tip 4.9, 10.5 , 16.8 , choker approx 24" per 27x rule

Drop to 3 running guides utilize the 3's as runners
spacing form tip 6.4, 14.2 , choker at approx 24"

If the 4 runner set up gives you the required results you're there
The 3 runner setup will provide a little extra distance if you need it.

If you would like to be more agressive let me know

Eugene Moore

I tried byag 16, 10 blag 8 and byag 20, 10, blag 6. Both with relatively "poor" results.

Patrick Rutledge

More test results. I tried it with the byag 25, 12, blag 6 I had most success with last night, but this time added a #3 chocker. It lost a little distance but not to bad. I replaced the #6 with a 3.5 and got equal results as what I had with the #6. so my rod setup for the last test was 25, 12, 3.5, 3(at the 27x location). I will have to try it with the rest of the #3s and also with all #3.5s to see what happens. I will do this after lunch and let you guys know what happens.

Patrick Rutledge

I have adopted a somewhat different mindset regarding guides. Micro? Macro? Big honking guides? I think the question about using micros is the wrong question.

Question # 1: What do you want the rod to do? What weight are you going to throw? What is the intended quarry? Is distance the primary objective? Looking to fight huge fish on small wands? Or are you making a "Jack of all trades," general purpose rod?

I make sure the guides I use will handle the intended task, and then go as light as possible: light weight = better performance from your blank.
Take a look at Alex's recommendations, and try it his way, and then perhaps one other way: 16, 8, and then 3.5 runners, eliminating the #6 all together. (There might or might not be any difference between these two guide trains)

I am not convinced that micros make a superior rod because they are smaller, but the weight (or lack thereof) in the tip section DOES make a difference. I have recently undergone a conversion experience. My spinning rods used to start with a 25 or a 30 ring, then get progressively smaller, down to about a size 6. Then it hit me: I began building rods when mono line was STIFF and would come off the reel (and lay on the water) in tight coils. That is no longer the case.. There is no need to attempt to "funnel" the line through progressively smaller guides. Most of my present guide trains begin with something between a 25 and a 16, the next guide is about 50% the size of the first, and the next (and final) size for the runners is about 50% of the 2nd guide. Three sizes, much lighter weight, and a rod that out-performs anything I was building 2 years ago.

If money is no object, titanium guides can further reduce weight. I have not found that to be necessary (and at around $100 retail for the guide train, excessive). I am using the Batson Alps guides almost exclusively, and performance has been outstanding.

So don't get hung up on using micros. Use the smallest guide necessary to do the job. And as an FYI, I built a personal rod with the Castaway SWA P905 (actually a 4 power)...the guide train was 25, 12, and then all size 6 in the Alps BVSLT series...an inexpensive guide train...and coupled with 20 lb braid on a Stradic 4000 series spinning reel, the combo had no difficulty handling a 200 lb tarpon.

Your perceived limitations of this rod related to casting distance will be impacted more by proper blank choice, changing to braid and improving the aerodymanics of the lure than fiddling around with the guides. Are you rigging Whacky? Which way is the wind blowing? How far a lure is thrown is controlled by the exit velocity at time of release minus and system loses - the larges loss in your system is lure aero.

leave your guides alone and spool up with 10lb power pro and use an 8lb co-poly or floro leader.

Regards,
-Justin

Parick Rutledge Wrote:
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> I tried byag 16, 10 blag 8 and byag 20, 10, blag
> 6. Both with relatively "poor" results.


Try the BVLAG. I'm casting a 1/4 oz practice plug @ 50 yards (sidearmed on an 8' rod) with the guide train I originally mentioned.

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Bill,

I know that it is a very non-aerodynamic lure to cast. Not much I can do about that as it is often the lure the fish want. Like I said earlier if I can't get this one lure to cast that far I will still be quite happy with the rod and would just use other means (heavier jig, different lure, wade in the river) when I need to reach that spot. I just was willing to play with the rod setup to see if I could gain any amount of distance with that lure.

Alex,

I don't have a bvlag on hand. How far is you #16 guide away from the reel face? With the 16 I noticed it was slapping the rod when I reeled in real quick.

Thanks to everyone.

Patrick Rutledge

make it easy on yourself !! get a blank that is light for the light a lure weight

After doing all that is said you may still -not like it and it may never perform the way it should

Build that or sell it to some one here that uses the heavier lures

Bill - willierods.com

Well I think I have figured out the "best" guide train for this rod/lure combo. I it as follows

Distance form tip: 5.5 11 17 24.25 33. 8 50.5 (in inches)
Guide size: 3.5 3.5 3.5 3.5 12 25

My question is now: So what's wrong with it?
Thanks for the input so far.

Patrick Rutledge

If it works to your satisfaction, then there's nothing at all wrong with it.

......................

Curious -

How far is it from the face of the reel spoon when in the forward position to the butt guide?

If you swap to braid and a short fluoro leader you will not have to get your feet wet to reach your honey hole!

The only thing wrong with what you have is you do not have a spare - build anther one!

It is 20.5 inches form spool to butt guide. I was asking if there was something wrong in terms of rod or line breakage with that few guides on it. I have heard that you need so many guides spaced close enough together or you risk line or rod or both. But I don't know if there is much truth to it.

Patrick Rutledge

A 7 foot rod with 6 guide plus tiptop is bordering on the minimum I'd use, but it's not wrong nor necessarily troubling.

...............

Thank you Tom. That's the reassurance I was looking for.

Patrick Rutledge

I'd add another 3.5 or two. The little bit of added weight should not detract from performance the closer spacing may improve casting by helping to control the line. And the rod will perform better on the fish fighting end as well.

I am trying to cast a 1/16 jig and 4" ringworm. It is the lightest lure (and a favorite) that I will have to cast with this rod. The distance I can cast is 22-23 yards and I want to cast an extra 2-3 yards. This is for one particular spot that I fish from the river bank.

Why are you guys trying to make -a blank that is too strong - to cast this lure weight ??????

Buy changing guides- spacing guides - and all the other things your telling him ---- when the blank is WRONG --

He needs a blank that will and is made to cast that light a lure

Correct me if I am wrong - but I don't see how all this stuff will help ????

Suggest the - right - blank this doesn't make sense

That is like using an UL to catch Tuna

Bill - willierods.com

Parick,
There is nothing wrong with the number of guides that you are using, if you are happy with the way that the blank loads when playing a fish.

If you get reasonable blank loading, i.e. having the line follow the contour of the blank, you are fine.

Generally speaking, the faster the rods action, the more guides you need near the tip to load the rod properly.

With a slower action with its more uniform bending blank, you can use fewer guides and still have the blank load properly.

But, again, if you don't catch fish too large, you may really never really load or flex the rod. If this is the case, then you can get by wih even fewer guides. You do however running the risk, with fewer guides to have a blank problem if you get into a heavy blank flexing situation on a heavy load with an improperly loaded blank.


Take care
Roger

Bill I know that if I dropped in blank power I would be able to cast that one lure better. But if I drop in power I then lose the ability to cast a tone of other lures I want to use while bank fishing. I am not in a boat so carrying multiple rods doesn't work for me. The rod works well for everything else I just wanted to get one last lure option out of this rod if I could. Like I said earlier if it doesn't work with this one lure then I guess I just have to use a 1/8 ounce jig (which I use sometimes anyways) and deal with the faster sink rate, or I get my feet wet. With the guide setup I have now I have more then enough distance with anything else I want to fish. I've been able to add about 2 - 2.5 extra yards so I am happy with the way it preforms now. Thanks again to everyone for all your help. If anyone has any more suggestions I am still open as I don't think this rod will get wrapped until next weekend.

Patrick Rutledge

Steve and Roger,

I will try it with an extra guide on there. Thank you.

Patrick Rutledge