Phil;
“Have micro equipped rods recently dominated flycasting, baitcasting, or spincasting distance contests?”

I cannot speak for “recent” contests:
But on February 19, 2010 at the International Custom Rod Builders Expo.
Several Custom Builders from around the Country competed against one another in a friendly contest in which both bait casting and spinning rods using two different line categories (Mono and Braid) where present. And in both categories with both types of rods 1st, 2nd, and third place finishes went to rods built utilizing various micro guide setups.


You are also a little confused about your Cabella’s rod.
Until the later part of last year, early part of this year there were no rods (or rod building kits) with Micro guides available in any of the large Box stores in this country. At present I still don’t believe there are any kits available.

Neither could the guides be purchased separately from them or any other store back then, with one exception.

At the time there was only one supplier of Micro guides in this Country and that was Bob McKamey of Custom Tackle Supply

I readily admit my ignorance of the requirements of pitchin' and flippin' techniques and equipment, but I remain quite confident in my experience and knowledge of most other sport fishing methods, and flyfishing in particular. It seems that micros are being touted as the ideal
equipment for all types of rods and fishing, but personal experience and the lack of objective data suggests this is not the case. Perhaps the advantages of micros are specific to B.A.S.S. anglers.

I don't know much about the largemouth bass tournament market but I do keep an eye on tackle marketing and claims. Accepting claims without documentation as being fact is all the vogue today, but I prefer the attitude (once) held by responsible news reporters: "If your mother says she loves you, check it out." Were the "wins" by micro guides at the rodbuilders convention awarded for looks or for performance? If for performance, what was this performance? Where can anyone find documentation of this convention, the contest, the rules, and the results?

I'm not sure where the line between micro guides and ordinary old guides lie, but I checked the guide sizes on my Five-Year-Old Cabela's Fish Eagle II nine foot steelhead spinning rod; to be specific, model #GSTII 906S. The I.D. of the last three guides and the tip-top is 3.5 mm.
I would classify such guides as "micros," but I may have the lingo wrong. You may check the accuracy of my claim about the guide sizes on the five year old Cabela's rod. I have provided the specific information which will allow you to do so.

The guides on the rod you have were originally designed and used for "European style tournament match guides" used on spinning rods. The size of the rings is the size of the guides called micro guides today. The match guides made in 1978 in Japan for spinning rods were identified as match guides - a gentleman by the name of Al Jackson was present in the Japanese manufacturing plant when the casting version was placed on the table for review and comment. The casting version of the guides were named micro guides in that meeting. No use was made for the match guides or ore the micro guides on casting rods until the Publication of the Article in Rodmaker Magazine by Steve Gardner.

Not one of the advocates for the micro guides who use this forum has ever implied that the micro concept applied to all rods and techniques.

Phil
Thank you for clearing that up, several of the manufacturer’s measure either the opening of the frame, or out side of insert rings for their size designations. What you have (depending on the brand) are most likely 5.5 or 6mm guides
There is a little bit of inside diameter differences between brands depending on the diameter of the ring itself,
But what you have on your rod are in fact NOT Micro’s.
The guides you want to classify as Micros have been the predominant smallest size available for the last decade.

Here are some dimensions of Batson, Fuji and American Tackle guides to give you a better Idea of what is being discussed and what you have on your rod.

Fuji 5.5mm tips are 3.42mm inside diameter
Fuji 5mm guides are 2.92mm inside diameter

Batson zirconium
5mm. Tips are 2.89 I.D.
5mm guides are 2.90 I.D.

Batson Micro guides;
4mm guides are 2.52 I.D.
3mm guides are 1.89 I.D.
2.5mm guides are 1.60 I.D.
2mm guides are 0.92 I.D.

American Tackle Micro guides
4mm guides 2.54
3mm guides 1.51

Also to clear something else up; I don’t know of any post or marketing that suggest;
“It seems that micros are being touted as the ideal
equipment for all types of rods and fishing”

Quite to the contrary, it has many times been stated by those working with them that they are not appropriate for all types of fishing rods or situations.

To my knowledge few people have even used them on fly rods.
And even on the one I built I stayed with 3mm (1.89 I.D.)Micros for fear that the 8 weight line would not go through smaller guides with out hanging up.

As far as documentation goes, RodMaker Magazine even though they did not include all the statistics, posted the winner of the casting competitions. The competition was solely on casting distances and had nothing to do with looks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 10:49PM by Steve Gardner.

There are currently size #1 light wire titanium fly guides.
I've found these lighter than most measured micro guides and still possess a 5mm ID.
I'm not aware of how they hold up to abrasion from mono and braid but they pass knots very freely.
The wire thickness is less than half the thickness of the insert guides I've measured.
I'm all in favor of reducing tip weight as a means of increasing rod performance but am not in favor of creating other restrictions. Icing, cottonwood debris, knots among others I've seen mentioned on this forum.
I've no ax to grind in opposition to micro guides. But they are not appropriate for fly rod duty. I have on the other hand seen many rods built with wire guides that should be able to take advantage of fly guides design and materials.
I'm also primarily a fly fisherman and 800 - 1000 cast days are common with a 9' rod. Not trying to be competitive but the stream speed dictates your casting rythym.

Eugene Moore

Steve, there is no reason for you to guess at the internal diameter of the guides on my five-year old Cabela's GSTII 906S rod in question. The beauty of objective data is that it can be measured, and this measurement can be confirmed or repudiated by measuring it yourself rather than guessing. Note that Bill's post above confirms the naming, definition of, and use of micro guides on spin rods as far back as 1978, even though they reputedly were not used on casting rods until later. My 2005 factory-built spin rod with [by definition] micro guides apparently has several generations of ancestors.

Eugene, I assume you are counting false casts in your 800 - 1000 casts per day regimin. I fish saltwater flats where anglers have found that a single double haul is the most effective way to present a fly and preserve rotator cuffs.

Phil;
With all due respect
I did not, as you stated;
“Guess at the internal diameter of the guides on my five-year old Cabela's GSTII 906S rod”

I used the Inside dimensions you provided in your previous post when you again stated that on your rod;
“The I.D. of the last three guides and the tip-top is 3.5 mm.”

Now I apologize, if I was wrong for assuming that when you posted the I.D. of your guides, you meant something other then ( I.D.=Inside diameter ).

From there I provided I.D. size info based on actual dimensions of guides in my shop using an electronic Digital Caliper. (NO GUESSING)
My only assumption was that at minimum your guides could be 5.5mm.


Please go back and reread Mr. Stevens post again. He did not state that micro guides were named that in 1978
He stated that Mr. Jackson was present when the term “micro guide” was coined

Yes there have been Match guides in use over seas since the 1970’s maybe earlier (not sure)
But there were designed for specific types of fishing done over there, using light lines and light baits.

If I’m not mistaken; (You can correct me if you choose)
Your #GSTII 906S (2 piece) sold by Cabela’s in 2005; had a line rating of 10-20 lb test and a lure range of ½-2 oz.
This would have precluded the use of micro guides, since it was not until they started being used on bait casting bass rods that heavier lines were used with them.

Mr. Stevens also stated that “Match guides” and “Micro guides” were defferent versions, of which he is correct
Here are three links so you can see the differences between match guides and Micros yourself. If you read the use designation under the picture of the first link, you can confirm what I said earlier about them being used for light action rods.

MATCH GUIDES
[www.mudhole.com]

MICRO GUIDES
[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Steve: I can assure you the guides on my spin rod are not "match guides," if the Mudhole photo accurately portrays match guides. History can be a nuisance when it contradicts doctrine. I'm driving over to the Mudhole tomorrow to buy a fly rod blank and components. I'll take my old Cabela's GSTII 906S rod to Ovedo and solicit Todd's opinion on whether or not it is equipped with micro guides.
I suspect the basis of our disagreement has more to do with word definition than reality, although I'm still dead set on concrete, verifyable evidence versus popular opinion or marketing hype to support claims of superior performance. Five or six years ago I built a Gatti TA 909 fly rod with single-foot Fugi Alconite guides of a size I would consider "micro." My leader knot jammed in the guides while I was snagged up, and this hang-up combined with a stout leader and a tidal current pushing my kayak resulted in a shattered rod. That Gatti rod casted wonderfully, perhaps partly due to the small ("micro?") guides, but the overall performance of these pre-micro (small) guides cost me a day's fishing, a couple hundred dollars, and many hours of rod building. I still mourn that Gatti rod.

Phil;
You maybe absolutely right with your observation;
“I suspect the basis of our disagreement has more to do with word definition than reality”.

“I can assure you the guides on my spin rod are not "match guides,"
We are in agreement!
I too am sure they are not, never said they were. Posted the pictures so you could see what Mr. Stevens was referring to.
I don’t believe they Micro’s either, but if you confirm they are? Please post it, I’m not to proud to eat crow if necessary

Taking your rod to Mudhole is a good idea!
If by chance Todd is not there, ask for Bob McKamey he is quite knowledgeable on the subject.
They most likely won’t have the really small Micro’s, but should have some 3 and 4mm sizes that you can compare to yours.

“I still mourn that Gatti rod.”
I understand, killed my last irreplaceable Shikari PSF764 pitching stick this year. The only thing harder then loosing her was cutting up what was left for parts.

For the record I don’t sell any type rod of components, nor am I presently sponsored by any of the Vendors on this site.
So there is no need for me to participate in marketing hype or anything else to promote a product for the sake of sales.

Here is a link to some testing done a couple of years back when we started playing around with some heavy braided lines and Micros
that may provide some of the evidence you require.

[rodbuilding.org]

Fuji alconite 5.5 guides have an I.D. of 3.4 mm. Alconite 6 guides have an I.D. of 4 mm. Those are not micro guides on your rod. Most of the guides being discussed as micro will fit clean through the guides on your cabellas rod.